Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

According to Martial Arts pg. 115, the Born Biter trait makes a character count as a larger size modifier for the purposes of biting only. It lists possible modifiers of +1 to +3 and gives an example of a reptile man that would have +3. I'm interested in seeing how the GURPS community would classify:
1) large cats (lions, tigers, jaguars)
2) bears (black, brown, polar)
3) canines (gray wolf, german shepherd, great dane, etc).

I'm inclined to think that cats would either lack Born Biter altogether or only qualify for level 1. Bears will probably be either level 1 or 2. Canines will probably be level 2 or 3 (ignoring the less adapted breeds like the pug).

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Your numbers look good, though I'd reserve BB3 for creatures with truly exaggerated jaws like alligators and snakes.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

I'd just check the actual lengths of those animals and see how hard they would be to hit. I think most dogs do have +2, while bears will have 1-2 based on which bear. Only some cats would actually qualify for a +1 (some cats could technically get +1/2, but that doesn't do anything).

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

That pretty much seems to confirm what I was guessing. I'll go with Cats at 0, Bears at 1, and Dogs at 2. I'll reserve 3 for alligators and things of that nature.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

An awful lot of creatures have bigger bites for their size than humans. The max size object a human can bite is around 1" (SM -11), and even a small dog can likely bite a tennis ball (SM -8); a tennis ball is at the low end of that SM, and the smallest dogs can't bite one, so we'll call it born biter 4 for a typical domestic dog. Crocodile jaw length is somewhere around born biter 5 or 6.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

A cougar is SM 0. Cougars regularly prey on elk, which are pretty solidly SM 1. Since a cougar can throttle an elk with its teeth and jaws (and regularly does), this argues for born biter at least 2.

A bobcat is SM -2, a cottontail SM -4. Bobcats can grapple cottontails with their jaws. This argues for born biter of at least 2.

Wolves are somewhere between size -1 and size 0. They regularly grapple elk and bison by the limbs. Bison are about size 2, elk (as previously mentioned) size 1. This might be consistent with the description under "Your SM is no greater than your victim's", so doesn't give too much to go on. They can, however, easily engulf a jackrabbit (SM -3) in their jaws, as can coyotes (SM -1), which argues that wild Canis has born biter of at least 1.

A red fox is SM -2. A European rabbit or jackrabbit is SM -3. Foxes can grab rabbits and jackrabbits in their jaws, grappling their entire body. This argues for born biter of at least 2.

Bears are not as predatory as dogs or cats, so it is harder to come up with known examples. Can a female black bear (SM 0) grapple a man's arm or throat easily in one bite, engulfing the limb or neck? If so, born biter of at least 1. Can she grapple a coyote (SM -1) by the body, engulfing the body with a bite? If so, she gets born biter 2. I would tend to guess yes for the first, and no for the second, giving bears born biter of 1.

My estimates for various mammals, reptiles, and chondicthyes can be found on my Animalia web pages
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/animalia/animalia.html
For your specific examples, I give felids born biter 2, canids born biter 2, and ursids born biter 1 (with possible exceptions because I don't want to go look through everything again).

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

I believe closer reading of the Teeth box in Martial Arts is in order. It isn't really about literal size of the mouth.

The big thing about SM and Biting/Grappling with the teeth is that you can not perform Neck Snap on foes of your own SM. Only those with SMs less than yours. You also can not target Veins/Arteries against your own SM.

Sadly, Choke Hold is not mentioned explicitly and this is more common than Neck Snap among animals. However, the text n the box does say that if you are of the same SM attacks on the Neck location only snare a flap of skin and I would not allow Choke Hold in such a circumstance.

SM+1 or more also allows for Grappling with the teeth as if using 2 hands and not just one which radically affects the chance of success.

So _any_ animal that grapples prey of the same SM and uses fatal holds on its' Neck should have a level of Born Biter. Also true for attacking Veins/Arteries. Those that Grapple with Teeth against larger prey should have 2.

Born Biter +3 (or similar natural SM) allows Teeth to Grapple the target's Torso or engulf the whole Head and should probably be kept for crocodilians, hippos and some sharks.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

[Large] cats, with their shorter jaws, actually have stronger bites than canids and are especially good at choke holds even on prey larger than themselves.

Hyenas, thylacines, and crocodilians have even stronger bites, for their size, than cats -- possibly excepting gavials and tomistomas. I agree with including hippos and most sharks in that.

Orcas and other short-jawed dolphins could get the same level as cats.

I'd think canids and bears would have weaker bites, for their sizes, than cats.

I don't know about snakes -- isn't the damage they do better modeled with long fangs, plus poison where applicable?

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

The bite force at the canines of essentially all large game hunting placental mammals (wolves, lions, tigers, jaguars, leopards, cougars, spotted hyenas, cape hunting dogs) is about the same when corrected for size (that is, when you plot bite force vs. body mass on a log-log plot, you get a straight line). Reference
Stephen Wroe, Colin McHenry and Jeffrey Thomason, "Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behaviour in fossil taxa", Proc. R. Soc. B 2005 272, 619-625
Hyenas are better able to crush bone, but that is a function of their tooth and jaw anatomy at the carnassals, which are not generally important in predation.

Bears, which are not as predatory, have weaker prey-grabbing bites than the large game hunter placentals.

Snakes have very weak bites, but extremely flexible skulls that are remarkably difficult to detach once they grab ahold of you, with six rows of inward curved teeth and each row is independantly mobile. Damage is negligible except in the case of giant pythons that bite and use their neck and torso muscles to rip back, dragging their teeth through skin and meat (this is a purely defensive bite, and not used for predation). I've been bitten enough times to know! (although, fortunately, not by giant pythons. The monitors were bad enough.) Most of the time, the danger for snake prey comes from venom, constriction, or (in the case of non-venomous, non-contricting snakes) just being swallowed whole.

However, the original post was about levels of born biter, and actual damage caused is not correlated with this trait. Rather, it is how well you can use your jaws to grab someone else. For snakes, the answer is very, very well. I would tend to give them born biter 2 - even if their jaws are small for their size, they are so extremely flexible that they can wrap and distort around relatively large prey.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Cool! You seem to know a lot about animals.

If Born Biter is all about grappling rather than damage, then I'd give crocs a lot but none at all to thylacines -- the latter could get a better Tooth type instead to represent their hard biting force (based on biomechanical comparisons of their skulls with wolves and hyenas). But they couldn't grapple, their jaws were too fragile for that.

Gavials and tomistomas also wouldn't get Born Biter then, since they eat fish instead of large mammals.

Do hippos grapple? I know they ram and gouge.

What about Gila monsters, beaded lizards, and monitors? I've read that they chew or grind their prey to get the venom/bacterial/whatever into the blood.

Then there are lampreys. They should get, like, BB 4 or something!

I assume the animal stats on your website are 4E. Are they also intended to go with your house rules?

Looking at them, I noticed you gave sabre-tooth casts Born Biter 3. I would argue against that. What I've read is that their long fangs would have been really great for slashing or tearing out the throat, but too fragile for any grappling. I would instead give them the largest type of Teeth but BB 1 at most.

I would also reduce the advantage for aardwolves.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Luke is our resident expert in lasers and lizards. Don't as him about the laser lizards though.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

"All I want is a frickin' lizard with a laser beam on it's head. Is that too much to ask?"
- Dr. Luke Evil

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

I wonder if Linda Lovelace qualifies for BB 1.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Hmm, makes me want to stat up the infamous laser-breathing Blood Dragon...

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

It seems to be all about your ability to get your mouth around something. There doesn't seem to be any related disadvantage giving you a fragile mouth that I can find. Thylacines have that huge gape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%22Benjamin%22.jpg
which makes one think they could get their mouths around reasonably large prey items, even if they would have trouble restraining a struggling kangaroo. Similarly, one could imagine that a gavial could clamp a man in its jaws ... once.

This one does
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc1S0NkZU_0

I can tell you from first hand experience that monitors chew and grind. One big male savana monitor did it to my hand. Not pleasant.

Monitors and heloderms seem to be in the Born Biter 2 category. A big male argus monitor (10 kg, SM -2) can engulf a jumbo rat (500 g, SM -4) and swallow it whole - so it has at least born biter 1. Lace monitors of about the same size can engulf European rabbits (SM -3), so born biter 2 seems about right.

Monitor biting adaptations seem to be divided into three kinds. The Indo-Australo-Asian monitors probably represent the ancestral trait. They have relatively weak jaws (but still difficult to get off of your hand when they've clamped on) but very strong neck, shoulder, arm, and torso muscles plus a tooth structure called "ziphodont". Ziphodont teeth are shaped like steak knives - blades with serrations along the back and often the front edge, typically recurved toward the rear, and well adapted for slashing through skin, muscle, and tendon. Monitors will bite, and then use their strong necks, arms, shoulders, and backs to thrash. In addition to slamming its victim around, this will rip out large wounds. It also allows the monitor to scavenge large carcases by ripping them apart (the claws also help with this).

The African monitors have very powerful jaws (but still have strong necks, arms, shoulders, and backs) with peg-like teeth. They bite and crush. Bites from these monitors can crush skulls, clams, and snails. They also shake their prey around a lot - cape monitors use bite-crush-shake to kill cobras by breaking their backs in multiple places (mostly by the shaking, but likely also where they bite). Tissue damage is not nearly so severe (which is why I still have all my fingers - savana monitors are from Africa).

Finally, you have the Australian dwarf monitors, which mostly eat insects, spiders, and lizards smaller than themsleves. Their teeth are sharp spikes for piercing and holding - but they still shake their prey around and crush it into the ground just like the larger species.

Heloderms (Gila monsters, beaded lizards) seem to act like the African monitors in this regard. They bite and crush. I don't know about the shaking and thrashing part.

they are certainly good at grappling! But they seem to do it more by "nabbing a fold of flesh" than wrapping their mouth around their victims. This argues for another trait than Born Biter.

Yup to 4E. You can check a box to get the house rules version, but by default the stats are as close to RAW as I can get them (with a few custom traits that seem necessary to describe animals).

[QUOTE=Vaevictis Asmadi;1602791]Looking at them, I noticed you gave sabre-tooth casts Born Biter 3. I would argue against that. What I've read is that their long fangs would have been really great for slashing or tearing out the throat, but too fragile for any grappling. I would instead give them the largest type of Teeth but BB 1 at most.

Saber tooth cats had an imense gape. It is thought that they preyed on North America's largest game, from bison to mammoths. We may never know their true feeding strategy, but paleontologists have had informed speculation that they used their unusually powerful build to grapple and restrain prey, and then would tear open the neck or abdomen with their teeth. This probably means they need to get their jaws around the neck or abdomen. The bigger Smilodons were SM 1. Bison are SM 2. Mammoths were SM 4. With born biter 3, a Smilodon could bite open the neck of an adult bison or a young mammoth. Adult mammoths would be too much for them.

Good catch! Thanks.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

So Born Biter isn't about grappling and holding on for X rounds, but being able to fix Y in your mouth to start with?

There seem to be several variables in how an animal bites:

* Speed of bite (handled by Basic Speed, DX, Combat Reflexes, etc.)
* Venom (handled by Innate Attack, etc.)
* Type of mechanical damage (handled by Teeth)
* Dice of damage (such as from bite force), relative to thrust (only handled by Weak Bite, as far as I know, although increases can be approximated via damage type multipliers, via Teeth)
* How large a chunk of meat you can bite (fit in your mouth) at once (this seems to be what Born Biter is?)
* Ability to hold a bite, grapple or choke hold, vs. attempts to escape the bite grapple (this is affected by bite force, by jaw flexibility (as with snakes), by tooth shape, and by the fragility or strength of the jaw (the jaws of thylacines appear to have been pretty weak for this thing, so that a struggling prey animal had a better chance to break the jaw and thus the hold) (is this what your Gripper advantage does?)

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Realistically, the size of the bite you can take is related to damage, in that no matter how strong your jaws, there's a limit to how badly you can hurt things if your mouth is too small.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

According to various GURPS supplements, you can buy Striking ST (bite only, -X%). I usually take a somewhat different route. If the extra damage is due to an extra powerful bite, I take Arm ST for the jaws, and call it Jaw ST (this means that it can also resist attempt to break free from a grapple). If the extra damage is due to the tooth mechanics, I take it as a Striker with a modifier making it apply to a bite.

I designed the Gripper advantage for ability to hold on (either with a bite or with other mechanisms, such as an octopus's suckers or a lobster's claws). So far I am not sure how I would handle a fragile jaw.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Delicately?

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

That may (or may not) be the thing in the real world that Born Biter models but Born Biter is primarily a game mechanical Trait that determines who (specifically in the form of relative SM)and how well (equivalent of 1 arm or 2) you can Grapple by Biting as well as the ability to attack specific targets such as Veins/Arteries and Vitals by Biting.

I know of no way to directly determine who has Born Biter by physical measurements. The standards haven't been published if they even exist in explicit form (they probably don't).

However, I can deduce the presence of Born Biter after the fact by analyzing the relative sizes of prey taken by Biting. If it's the animal's SM or bigger they have Born Biter. I know of no other way that I consider accurate to do this.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Not to be confused with Master Brett Evill, our resident Aussie economist and non-evil genius, who inexplicably refuses to give up some years of his life to finish a PhD, in order that I might know a Dr. Evill in real life.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Well, just give it a 6d(2) burn innate attack with ROF 10, and that should do it. I don't know how many games can handle that much awesomeness without imploding, though, so be careful.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Snort! Good one.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

But then what do you do with an animal that can bite things larger than themselves, but can't grapple with their jaws? Thylacines had the weak jaw structure I described, but could bite a dog's entire head at once. They just couldn't hold on afterwards. Sabre-tooth cats could tear out the throat of a quite large animal, but couldn't grapple without risking a life-threatening broken canine.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

High mouth SM (Born Biter) but low jaw ST. This will be easier to do by far once The Book That Shall Not Be Named comes out.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

GURPS SURVIVORS will have rules on biting and grappling?!?

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

I was thinking VDS as mouths are just processing vehicles for the stomach.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Spaceships 7 has rules for Maws. VDS might address the subject in greater detail.

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

But then we get to the Thylacine, which had a stronger bite than comparable placentals (like the dingo), but less resistance to torsion. So a dingo is better at biting and holding a struggling 'roo by the leg even though it can't chomp down as hard. It would also be easier to pry a dingo's jaws off than a thylacine's.

Luke

Re: Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears
 

Easier to pry if you pull them apart hinge-wise like a bear trap. Probably harder to escape by writhing around.