Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

In a world where Neanderthals still existed, at least as far as the middle ages (so about TL3), and fought with modern humans how would both the humans and Neanderthal martial arts be affected?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Unarmed or Armed? we call both Martial arts around here.

Honestly, only if you need flavor. The two species (or not, interbreeding may have occurred) are so similar it shouldn't effect combat much.

But if you want to have differences, go for it!

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I'm going with both. When you get to the middle ages there's not the same division that you get with modern martial arts.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

And what is the difference between the two in this setting? the exact differences have so much wiggle room it can be hard to say. Are these hulking brutes that are dumber than Cro-mangons, or do they mostly have a thicker face and perhaps heavier musculature?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Assuming Neanderthals are tougher and stronger, but a little dumber:
The biggest difference would be that Neanderthals would have a higher ratio on the warrior class.
The higher ST would make it a little easier against armor, but, since they also wear armor, it would cancel it. However, humans would have a slighter higher incentive to use two handed/heavier weapons.
Neanderthals being adapted to cold, would only live in the north, everywhere else they would be very rare, and normal history would progress normally. They wouldn't be considered a different race, only as tough guys/gals.


Of course, we're ignoring interracial breeding, with is what happened and would happen if they still existed.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Well, they lived in the Near East and Mesopotamia, too.

Maybe there are Neanderthal hillmen in the Zagros and Taurus Mountains of the OP's setting?

I like the idea of the Neanderthals being seen as 'tough guys.'

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I'd give the Neanderthals "Smasha". ;)

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Awww, yeah!

GURPS Martial Arts for 3E, ORC-FU

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

It's also in 4e.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

(Assuming superior ST, especially upper body ST, and equal TL on the Neanderthal side)

Neanderthal vs Neanderthal Styles: Neanderthals who are trained to primarily fight other Neanderthals are mainly going to be concerned with the absurdly heavy armor their kin are able to move around in. Targeted Attacks to areas that are difficult, expensive, or otherwise unpopular to armor heavily (eg: the Neck) are probably emphasized, as are Wrestling moves that allow immobilizing or injuring a high-DR target.

Neanderthal vs Human Styles: Armed: No Change from Human vs Human. The Sling and Atl-Atl are probably popular. Unarmed: Those skinny little bastards are quick, but once you put hands on them, they're finished. Pick a Grappling Skill (Wrestling is probably best, but I'd be tempted to use Sumo here) and go to town on it, ideally until Deceptive Attacks good enough to avoid weapon parries are possible.

Human vs Human Styles: No Effect.

Human vs Neanderthal Styles: Emphasis on keeping a stronger opponent off-balance and not getting hit or caught. Judo is probably a primary skill, with improved Evade and Enhanced Defenses as options. Rapid Retraction Perks are a good idea. Any weapons are probably two-handed and built for penetration like the stuff you start seeing more around TL 4, but used conservatively for Feints and Defensive Attacks until there's a good opening.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Male neanderthals were around 5'3". Most humans are intimidated more by height than strength. But I guess the lower center of balance might help in real life if below Gurps granularity.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of a Neanderthal martial art at their prehistoric tech level.

I'm thinking it would evolve from their hunting practices, in particular, taking large game.

Core Skills: Spear, Brawling, Tracking, Running, [Edit: Questionable - Spear Throwing]

Techniques:

Attack from Above
Breakfall^
Evade^
Trip^
Sweep (Spear or Brawling)
Tartgetted Attack: (Spear Thrust/Neck-Veins)
Close Combat (Spear)
Eye Gouging (Brawling)
Flying Lunge

Perks:
Grip Mastery (Spear)
Skill Adaptation (Listed wrestling techniques^ default from Brawling)
Teamwork

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Many TL 0 societies do have lots of free time, but without war or concentrated tribal fighting, there wouldn't be much need for pure combat forms.
Classic wrestling and tests of strength would likely be the most realistic.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

This is a little tangential, but I posted thoughts on gaming PCs in the GURPS Madlands (a.k.a. Fantasy II) setting. Those PCs aren't Neanderthals, and they battle supernatural horrors instead of mastodons, but they're subsistence hunters/farmers with technology not far above prehistoric levels. There are similarities.

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/03/ga...ch-pcs-part-ii

I include a list of appropriate skills and techniques (to which Figleaf23's list of technique suggestions make a nice addition), covering hunting, fishing, and survival, as well as combat. Minor point of interest: If the Madlanders (or Neanderthals) don't engage in "soldiering" or other explicit martial training, and instead primarily have fighting ability as an extension of hunting skills, then a package of combat skills without the 1-point Style Familiarity that turns the abilities into a codified "martial art" is arguably the way to go. That'd make a concrete difference in the fighting methods of Neanderthals vs trained "modern" soldiers, even if not a big one in mechanical terms. (That's my "feel", anyway, for Neanderthal or other hunter-based fighting methods. No argument with anyone who prefers full-out martial arts for our prehistoric cousins!)

One more thing: I've also long wanted some way for characters – especially hunters – to display special experience and expertise in battling specific types of creatures. A Neanderthal might not have the battlefield skills of a trained soldier, but might outshine the soldier when it came to, say, predicting the movements of a cave bear and efficiently taking it down. I've taken a very experimental shot at that too:

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/04/bu...at-familiarity

I hope those links might be of interest in pondering Neanderthal design overall, even if they're a bit off from your key question (how Neanderthals would battle modern humans).

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

How would they exist unless you assume the two groups are not interbreedable?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

It's not about free time. It's about the invention of formalized schools of fighting and regimented training programs. Which is at least as early as the Agoge (which means I should of said TL1) but it had to be invented at some point. It requires a level of social organization that coincides with cities.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Feudalism is sufficient for that.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

That sounds more like requiring population densities that coincide with cities among humans in our history. The classic monastery created forms could instead relate to loose mouth of river / small rich hunting ground type communities without quite pushing into TL 1, in my opinion.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Small cities, with populations of several thousand, are a late TL0 invention. The Neolithic Revolution in farming made them possible; Çatalhöyük is a good example.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Some players might call that TL 0 / 1 in cities. Agriculture definitely makes them TL 1 in some regards.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I don't see any reason why it should be different to fight a Neanderthal instead of a Human. Nor even fantasy-style humanoids such as Dwarves, Orcs or Elves. Humans already vary a lot, in terms of body size, musculature and so forth.

I do see some simulative value in making it a special kind of training to be able to attack or defend against foes of exotic morphology, such as quadropeds (although not for attacking with missile weapons), but in GURPs terms that's just a Perk, or a couple of Perks, or a Technique (probably an Average one).

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

As you probably already know, but which some others in this thread might not, the "Orcs" in my Ärth setting are Neanderthals. I got the idea from Michael Crichton's "Eaters of the Dead", where they're the "grendels" from the Beowulf legend.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Is there any evidence that any such thing existed?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Of what, densely populated hunter gatherer societies? There were quite a few here in the pacific northwest. Or do you mean something else?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Also some amazingly dense gardening/hunter-gatherer societies in the Amazon.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Neolithic Martial Arts

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

This thread isn't about what actually happened in history. It's about what could be without suspension of disbelief. Not to mention how does skill fossilize?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Cave paintings of people wrestling?

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

But the shapeshifting shamans and "space suited aliens" prove what exactly? Or that poor Venus of Willendorf with no face or feet and WalMart customer level rotundity? But I get the point. ;)

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Now that you mention it, I remember that now. It makes sense -- why fight game when you can wound or kill it from afar? So I'd take out Spear Throwing.

Running however, I'd be more inclined to keep. We've seen persistent biases against fleetness of prehistoric creatures get punctured. I'd think if you're going to attack large game, you need to be able to catch up to it.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

There's good evidence that no other hominid other than modern anatomical humans were such freakishly good distance runners.
Neanderthals may have been better sprinters though.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

However, in a TL3 setting living with humans who could teach them how to throw a spear and having high quality spears compared to TL0 ones, it would be easier for them to learn.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

It's not an issue of "too stupid to throw things" - it's an issue of "anatomically not well designed to throw things" and possibly "missing the neurological visual post-processing areas necessary to throw accurately".

All the great apes and lots of monkeys throw things. They're also generally really innacurate and (for their strength and arm length) weak throwers, due to the structural design of the wrist (and to a lesser extent the fingers and thumb).

The cock of the wrist and snap of it at the arc of the throw with the spear gives it the speed, the way you release your grip gives the spin for accuracy, and you have to be able to contort your wrist the right way to throw the spear pointy-end forwards, rather than sort of slipshod diagonal.

Throwing things is even more fascinating a problem, because signals from the brain to release the object can't technically arrive in your hand by the time you need to release it; there's a whole lot of forward anticipation and planning in throwing things effectively.

Humans appear to be unusually well designed and wired up for the ability to throw complex things (like spears and throwing sticks), never mind our fabulous ability to throw small roundish objects like rocks and baseballs. There's really no question that we've evolved adaptations to make ourselves better at it than, say, austrolapithicus, but there's reasonably good anatomical evidence that we outpace even close relatives, like Neandertals. Possibly we had to specialize a little in chucking, being less robust than them and thus not quite as well equipped to go toe-to-toe with a mammoth.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Figleaf23 mentioned TL0 Martial Arts. I said that I suspect that Martial Arts are TL1 (well I said TL2, but then I remembered the Agoge). Tech Levels are always "about what actually happened in history". If Martial Arts are a TL1 invention then prehistoric Martial Arts are TL0+1. Consistient patterns battlefield injuries (beyond "they all got maced to the head"; "Mace to The Head" isn't a meaningful formal style). Ruins of training schools.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

... quite a list of things, actually.

Running, throwing, swimming/diving, language, spatial sense, digital manipulation ...

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

Our spatial sense isn't something to brag to other primates about. Our running is great as long as you don't care about moving at a glacial pace.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

For ground-bound primates it is; ours seems to be decently in the same range as tree-branch hopping primates, which is excellent. Can't really sneer at our sense of balance either, teetering about on two legs like we do.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I've heard it described that we're heavily specialized in living in a changing, unstable environment. We're a go-anywhere eat-anything species, and as far as company in that group there's not many - dogs, rats, cockroaches, and notably we really dislike two of those and have some mixed feelings about dogs... (ask anyone in an area with a real feral dog population about dogs...)

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

We might move at a glacial pace, but we can keep it up for many hours with a bit of practice. Back in high school, anybody could beat my 5' 2" body in a sprint, but give me even two miles and the jocks would be eating my nerd dust. I love cross country running. One of the few sports I was really good at.

Humans have used this to hunt, driving their game to exhaustion.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

You do realize that nicely fossilized specimens are such a small percentage of the population that it might be difficult to make an accurate statement about this.

I don't believe in real cave-man kung-fu, but it might make an interesting game.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

"Martial Arts defines a “martial art” as any systematically taught fighting style used for any purpose – combative or otherwise."

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

That's why I think sports almost certainly were taught by some ancient tribes. Combat versions probably not as war is more of a TL 1 thing, I think.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

The burden of proof isn't with me. I claim that Martial Arts are probably a TL1 invention. I submit institutions like the Agoge as proof. The claim that Martial Arts are TL0 inventions is the one that needs to submit evidence. Even a Amazon tribe with a systematic fighting school would do.
Which is, I suspect, TL0+1. No problem there.

Yes, and? Systematic fighting had to be invented at some point. I'm suggesting it was invented in the Bronze Age.

I'm not saying that TL0 can't learn Wrestling. I'm saying that they don't have a systemic style of wrestling, or formal schools of wrestling.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I would suggest that any culture with an experience of warfare would have some kind of martial arts.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

For whatever reason, I sometimes have difficulty discerning when you are providing and opinion or conjecture vs when you're making an assertion about GURPS.

Note that the rules say 'systematically taught'. It seems like your interpretation requires something more elaborate.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

I'm with Puddin on this: TL0 societies don't seem like they have the institutions needed for a Martial Art.

Re: Martial arts for and against Neanderthals
 

There isn't anything in print that says "Martial Arts are a TL1 invention" as far as I know, no. However, there is the general rule that an invention's TL is the TL at which it can be shown through historical or archeological data that it was a mature technology as opposed to a toy, demonstration, or prototype.

However it occurs to me that I may be wrong. I had forgotten about Mesoamerican warrior societies (particularly those of the Aztec Empire) which were clearly systematically trained in formal styles at TL0. Although maybe it's better to consider the Mesoamerican civilizations to be Advanced in Political Organization or whatever as well as in Mathematics and so on. Low-Tech Companion 1 suggests the State is a TL1 invention as well.

I don't think so. Style Familiarity means that not only are you trained in a coherent system of fighting, but that somebody who has never met you can possibly identify that style by observing you fight and use that knowledge to predict your actions. It is possible for two different people, trained by different masters, to have the same Style Familiarity. For societies organized as Bands or Tribes, with a purely oral tradition of teaching, and no formal dedicated warriors or soldiers it seems very unlikely that this kind of systemic training to be common enough to be considered a mature technology.