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Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1533767)

The idea that souls are just another layer with almost exactly the same rules and physical laws as reality just seems like such a lame failure of imagination. It adds nothing but needless complexity. You got to change it up a bit to keep my attention.

Wow, I have no idea how you got that out of what I had written. It's not physical.

Do yourself a favor and read the book before you trash it.

I mentioned, but did not explain, the metaphysical aspects of the book and its treatment of 'damned souls.' That's because it wasn't on topic. I simply described one aspect of the book that could be reduced to simple form and applied in DF.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatmedic (Post 1533772)

Wow, I have no idea how you got that out of what I had written. It's not physical.

Do yourself a favor and read the book before you trash it.

I mentioned, but did not explain, the metaphysical aspects of the book and its treament of 'damned souls.' That's because it wasn't on topic. I simply described one aspect of the book that could be reduced to simple form and applied in DF.

How did I trash it? I was lamenting the eating souls concept as too steeped in physical prey/predator eat or be eaten cycle of life. The main thing that makes souls a unique concept to me is that they are eternal. Take that away and it's just another layer of physical body.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1533770)

So personalities don't follow even the semi-predictable patterns of real life heredity and environment? Hopefully there's no magical way to tell what soul a baby has. Otherwise it might make sense to kill the born bad ones, to avoid the hassle. And that's rather disturbing.

heredity part is based on soul, placement is somehow based on your progress. but environment most deftly does have have effect that part of point of being reborn mortal free will while alive is a lot easier to 'advance' then on the eternal planes.

After a holy war with an arcane sorcerer who develop a spell the could actually destroy a soul. The priests of the dominate pantheon have banned all arcane magic the deals with the soul and the eternal planes. The dominant gods of the Parathon like the aforementioned Goddess of the Lifecycle really get upset at preists that pray for spell that would interfer with such fresh starts.

That not to say such spells are not possible for certain strong souls like keeping an eye out Dali lama style. But kill the babes on Shielded-lands on the criterion is not 'socially acceptable' ... a couple of the priests non-patheon gods a partials God who disperses free will might try to take out a few champions if born in lands they control.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1533776)

Well, no, not really. Yes, it's predation. But souls eaten by the devils (in the book) are not simply obliterated. They are subsumed into the devil that eats them. That is eternal. Material metaphors like 'eating' certainly help, but they only go so far. You need to think in metaphsyical terms to grok what Lewis is describing.

This quotation may help explain it a bit more clearly for you>

Quote:

To decide what the best use of it is, you must ask what use the Enemy wants to make of it, and then do the opposite. Now it may surprise you to learn that in His efforts to get permanent possession of a soul, He relies on the troughs even more that on peaks; some of His special favourites have gone through longer and deeper troughs than anyone else. The reason is this. To us a human is primarily food; our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense. But the obedience which the Enemy demands of men is quite a different thing. One must face the fact that all the talk about His love for men, and His service being perfect freedom, is not (as one would gladly believe) mere propaganda, but an appalling truth. He really does want to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself—creatures whose life, on its miniature scale, will be qualitatively like His own, not because He has absorbed them but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; He wants servants who can finally become sons. We want to suck in, He wants to give out. We are empty and would be filled; He is filled and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself: the Enemy wants a world full of beings united to Him but still distinct.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

So he corrupts them by ultimate brain washing? If I read that right, then eating is completely and utterly wrong and a horrible analogy.
If that isn't it, then I have not a clue what you or that excerpt mean.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

What's the OP's DF campaign setting like in terms of metaphysics, mythology, and morality?

Knowing that may help posters trying to give good feedback and suggestions.

Is this a world defined by the struggle of Good against Evil?

If there is a 'Hell' is there also a 'Heaven'?

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

B-Dog tends to act as if his assumptions of roleplaying are the default. Giving an idea of what those are would be quite helpful, I agree.

To have demonic beasties running around at all does suggest that the powers of Good aren't that much more powerful than Evil if not equal or heaven forbid weaker.

That would be an interesting setting. The powers of evil are more powerful, so the fight needs mortal heroes to step up.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1533835)

No, it's not brainwashing.
I'm either not doing a good job of explaining it or else you just need to read the book. Probably both. :)

As I understand Lewis' writing, Hell isn't a place that God chooses to send you for being a sinner. It's a place you send youself by rejecting God's grace, a place where you lose your will and your soul to evil. This has often been portrayed as burning in scripture, Church tradition, art and literature, but it may also be conceived of as being eaten.

I'm worlds away from being even an amateur theologian (my interest in religion is mainly in history and myth and not nearly so much in abstract ideas). You'd be better off consulting someone more knowledgeable if you want an in-depth analysis of all this, both the novel and the underlying ideas.

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Yeah, that makes no sense at all. When a simple metaphor of "eating" does not help at all with a concept, you know you got a problem understanding it. :)

Shouldn't every proponent of a religion by necessity be at least an amateur theologian? How can you believe something if you don't understand it?

Re: Hell in Dungeon Fantasy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1533858)

I don't have trouble understandting the metaphor, but it may not work for you. Burning and eating are just two ways to think of it. Both make sense to me on some level.

I am not acting as a 'proponent' of any religion.

Can we please get back on topic?