Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

When faced with a monster from one's darkest nightmares; what does one need? Beside a miracle?

Guns. Lots of Guns.

I've discussed the melee and unarmed combat styles of people who go out on behalf of the Queen of England* and hunt rogue magicians, spirits made corporeal and sidereal monsters; in this thread. The kind of foes they usually face are mentioned here, along with what happens to the bodies and witnesses. Here's some stuff about their melee weapons, also know as decapitation tools, as well as speculation about less-than-lethal alternatives.

More broadly, I extended the speculative research and solicitation of feedback from forumites to the whole circle of people around HM who were aware of the existence of the supernatural in this thread.

After having more-or-less made up my mind on the question of how the men who jokingly refer to themselves as the Queen's Paranormal Rangers would fight unarmed and with melee weapons, I started to wonder about their primary armament, namely firearms.

In a post in the thread on Ranger Combatives, I lay forth some of the problems with obtaining military grade weaponry for an unofficial group that essentially operates outside the law. Of course, by thus hiding a post on modern weaponry in a fairly long thread on martial arts, I've ensured that HANS or other people knowledgable about or interested in firearms are unlikely to ever see it. It is really more suitable for its own thread.

I'm assuming, for the reasons given in the linked post, that the conspiracy obtains most of its armament through technically-illegal, but practically very hard to track, subterfuge like having foreign monarchs or government, such as the Sultan of Brunei or one of the friendly Emirs in the UAE, order smallarms from a British factory, receive an empty case and conspiciously failing to complain, with a wink and a nod.

They also have the option of having one of their people still inside the armed services or police forces write off some arms cached in one of their armouries, but would only do so if it was almost certain not to come out.

This need not imply that they tell those who handle the transaction what it's for. The foreign monarch would know that he had done a favour for a British royal or another very important person and someone important at the UK factory would know the same thing. Same could apply to senior police or military men giving orders to 'lose' armoury weapons. Some would do it because they knew about the supernatural and agreed with the need to counter it, even if the government didn't yet.

In other cases, the transaction could be more quid pro quo, the influence of the Shadow Court used on behalf of someone who did them a favour within knowing too much, perhaps with an (implied) cover story about a secret government agency needing the weapons for some sort of black operation. Such a cover story, in any event, would be all that was needed for the actual people who 'lose' the weapons.

Practically speaking, the conspiracy is thus more-or-less limited to weapons made in the UK or issued at some point to their armed services or police. Granted, they could probably obtain some other weapons in small numbers, but it will be much easier to get their hands on UK-made stuff. The first time the conspiracy started to buy weapons, it was ca 1991-1995, when they would have tried to get weapons for maybe 10-20 people. By 1998-2000, they'd have started to prepare weapons for more people than they had and a large purchase might conceivably date from that time. After 2001, at the latest, they decided to upgrade what they had and stock much more weaponry. The numbers below are minimums to be met by 2010. They should keep on going up every year after that and in the current day, they should have at least 50% more if they can arrange it.

With that in mind, what weapons does the Hive Mind recommend?

I know that L9A1 pistols, MP5SFA2 (and possibly other semi-automatic variety) submachine guns, L1A1 SLR rifles and L2A3 Sterling submachine guns would probably be comparatively easy to obtain from government armouries during the period when the conspiracy starts to collect arms, i.e. between 91-95. I'm wondering about more modern weapons, primarily. TL8 for preference, and for the longarms ideally fairly easy to fit with night-vision devices and suchlike, while at least some of the pistols need to be able to be fitted with effective suppressors without too much hassle.

Glock 17s arm most of the police and would thus be easier to get than many other weapons. A bit big for their purposes, I should think, however. And while the L105A1/A2/A3 pistols are great weapons, I don't think there were ever very many of them in British Army issue and, in any case, they are also a bit big for concealed carry. There are also these weapons, courtesy of Roger Burton West. I don't know how difficult it would be to get hands on some of the more interesting items there, though.

I don't know how many modern HK weapons like the G36C are in the hands of their police tactical units and how practical it would be to obtain a few of them surreptiously, but if they can, it would be an ideal longarm.

The most important needs are the following:

a) Carry pistols. In all, would need some 250 of those. Maybe 50 could be full-size, but most of the rest would need to be comfortable for all-day carry and even suitable for carry by civilians with limited training and while wearing clothing that could not always be selected merely for covert carry suitability. Ideal weapons are high-capacity and power for their size, but still slim and small enough so that most people can carry them all day. Some might also need to be small enough for carry as a backup weapon or by slight persons, such as women.

b) Entry longarms. The most power in a small package possible, because they might need to be concealed in vehicles or carried while disguised as deliverymen or repair staff. Need about a fifty of these. Also need the optics, NVGs, flashlights and all those accessories, in a way that won't raise eyebrows when you have to get fifty or so of each.

c) Extra-power longarms. Something that can take down beings resistant to regular SMG or carbine rounds, like a cut-down 7.62mm rifle, a .50 Beowulf carbine or a small but high-capacity squad automatic weapon. Something like a G3KA4 or the F.R. MC-51** would be nice. Need at least ten.

d) Tactical shotguns. Again, as easy to conceal as possible, but as powerful as possible. Need a round dozen, maybe two dozen.

e) Covert longarms, fairly easily suppressed. Need a dozen or two. Not only the guns are a problem here, because they'd also need a source of really good suppressors.

*And Scotland, Nothern Ireland and some fifteen other Commonwealth nations.
**Both of which are possibilities, but somewhat rare for our purposes. Even if they managed to snag some from storage, I think they'd need a source of more such weapons.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Why not buy them on the black market, rather than through official but black channels. If they think you're Irish revolutionaries it doesn't leave any kind of trail that you're a shadow branch of the British government. Or likewise utilize the arms smuggling networks that narcotics dealers most certainly have.

Alternately, what's to prevent procurement from foreign sources, other than local pride? There are any number of unsavory characters willing to sell weapons with few questions asked, provided the EFT to the account in the Caymen Islands is good. AR15 clones are common on the market (although at the moment priced astronomically high due to political hysteria), they should be easy to source. Guns of similar design but chambered for the larger 7.62mm NATO round are also available, typically from the same manufacturers.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

For the most part, because none of the people involved are criminals or likely to have contacts with many such. Except possibly a few cops, but even so, they are PPOs in SO14 and not terrorist or drug unit people. They are likely to know important industrialists, some of whom may control armament factories, and they know both foreign and local royalty and military personnel. These people, unlike many criminals, may actually have good skills in covering up their traces and many of them will have already demonstrated loyalty and discretion in service to HM. Not to mention that most of them are likely to share a dislike of appearing in the press.

There's also the problem that black market weapon transactions are typically deeply unprofessional affairs, where trust is hard to come by and a certain percentage is bound to go wrong. For professional criminals, a risk to be endured. For HM the Queen and people around her, it would mean a huge media furor, a parlimentary investigation and a complete end to all their well-meaning paranormal activities. The extent of arms smuggling into rich Western nations by out-and-out criminals, armed robbers, drug barons and suchlike, is also often exaggerated. In reality, most gang-related violence is caused by knives or blunt trauma. That holds true both in the US and especially so in the UK. Even when there are gang-related shootings, the weapons used tend to be legal firearms that have been stolen or otherwise transfered from their legal owners.

Military firearms almost never turn up in the hands of criminals on the streets. While there are incidents to the contrary, for the most part, these are exceptional in the same way as winning the lottery or being struck by lightning is. It isn't something to plan on. If you approached a random criminal, even one running a large drug organisation, chances are that he'd not have any good way of getting military hardware for you, no matter what you paid him. Why should he? That's not what he does. It's a high-risk, low-reward business. The people who grow wealthy from the arms trade are legal industrialists, not street criminals.

When you have trustworthy and loyal contacts inside UK arms factories and are friendly with people like Sultan Qaboos of Oman, Sultan Hassanal of Brunei and King al-Khalifa of Bahrain (before him his father the late Sheikh), it's simply more reliable and discreet to use them to obtain the weapons and obscure any paper trail.

Mainly the risk of having them smuggled into the country. If they were accidentally discovered and someone started to trace the money trail, it that could blow the conspiracy wide open.

It isn't that they couldn't do it, it's that the theoretical advantages of being able to buy any brand you like probably don't outweight the extra risks involved.

An exception might be if they set up their own Private Security Company, which they'd contrive to get authorised to purchase military weapons. Establish a false employment history with the assistance of UAE and other Gulf monarchs, as trainers to various units there, and list some of the weapons shipped abroad when they actually stayed behind for use by Ranger teams.

But they probably couldn't do that for too many weapons. Maybe 10-20 carbines with accessories, sidearms and some special items. But I don't see them getting away with securing all their weapons this way, for one thing because the larger the PSC is, the greater the risk of them appearing on the radar with UK security services and military intelligence, not to mention potential media attention.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I had been under the impression that they were a good deal more black than what you have described. If you want to remain truly black you wouldn't want to touch those kinds of contacts. You'd want everybody thinking they were selling to untrustworthy scum.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

When people think they are selling guns to criminals, there is the risk that they'll tell the cops or the media about it. Or just some of their criminal friends, who then talk to someone else. And the cops might come across the trade through investigating the day jobs of the criminals in question.

When respectable people are under the impression that they are selling to unofficial arms of the military, intelligence or security services, however, they may remain discreet in the hope of getting larger and more public deals later.

The primary goal of the Shadow Court is for the supernatural to eventually become known and for their members, associates and contacts to then guide the governments of the UK and other Commonwealth nations behind the scenes to the proper measures to take to combat abuse of it. Secondary goals include the protection of the Royal Family, British and Commonwealth subjects and vital British interests during the transition period while the government remains unaware of the occult.

In order to accomplish these goals, people associated with the conspiracy have discreetly infiltrated the British armed services and security services. Many people who would have known about the early stages have by now become leading figures in business, with contact networks of their own.

One aspect of the conspiracy is that they've tried to warn foreign monarchs and governments with close ties to Great Britain about the supernatural, in order to enable them to safeguard their rulers from arcane attack. They do this through circuitous means, preferably approaching a person known to senior Shadow Courtiers and the foreign government both and having him handle the actual approach. If he's not believed, the risk of expose is still fairly low* and the worst case scenario still reveals only someone with a peripheral connection to the central figures in the conspiracy. Anything anyone could say publicly would be rampant speculation and dismissed by mainstream media like claims that the Queen is a lizard-person.

And when obtaining weapons, they don't have to tell everyone involved what they need them for or even reveal the existence of any organised group. The risks can be taken by one man in the group, who is prepared to go the prison if caught, and he'll do his best to suggest that the weapons are to be used by a secret government agency.

Such people as the former Chief Instructor, Tactics Wing, of the School of Infantry can plausibly claim to be on secret Whitehall or Army business when they ask an industrialist to disappear a shipment of guns so that no media or NGO watchdog groups know where they are sent. Maybe he'll tell them, off the record, that they are being sent to an unpopular regime in the Middle East. Through the King of Bahrain or Sultan of Oman in the Middle East, the paperwork can even back up the weapons leaving the UK and arriving there.

On the UK end, the industrialist who helped with it may then be rewarded through secret influence, with nothing written down and them not even knowing who they were helping or that there is any such thing as a secret paranormal conspiracy. On the foreign end, the monarch may not have any idea what he was helping with either, though he does know that someone close to the Crown did ask him to do it.

*Monarchs in the Gulf are not notably fond of the press.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

One thing to consider is that their is a famed English tradition of gunsmiths who make awesome arms for the well to do (admittedly usually sporting arms)

The fine upstanding citizenry of the Shadow Court might know some of these gentlemen well enough to ask them to build weapons for the cause

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

You basically have three choices for weapons: you can get it from the black market, you can smuggle it in from places where it's legal, and you can get it in an official manner. Exactly what cover story you're using to acquire it on the black market does not make it not a black market transaction.

On checking, the UK firearms manufacturing business seems fairly marginal, though it does exist, but it's probably easier to smuggle in Eastern European weapons.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Actually, the prefered nomenclature for transactions where arms are legally sold to one place and actually end up somewhere else is 'grey market'. And that's how British private military/security contractors with a rumoured connection to government agencies have traditionally obtained weapons they were strictly speaking not entitled to buy in order to use them for purposes not officially condoned by the British government.

Possible. That is, after all, how a mix of high-status socialtes and ex-military mercenaries from the UK obtained a fully armed Hind attack helicopter for the purposes of a coup in Africa. But for smallarms, they seem to prefer Western weapons and are somehow able to get their hands on some. There have been numerous rumours about British industrialists doing essentially what I've been describing above, though they are usually suspected of doing so on behalf of MI6 or other shadowy government organisations.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The other issue, I think, is that the Rangers want a significant quantity of standardized, combat-effective weapons. That would be hard to get on the criminal market, especially in the UK, and likely to provoke seller's remorse or catch police or intelligence attention. So relying on contacts in industry and foreign governments seems more sensible than the commercial market.

If they just wanted a few handguns or shotguns, and were not choosy about what they got, the commercial black market would make more sense. I also wonder if illicit imports from elsewhere in the EU, such as Italy, would be a possibility.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Set up a workshop, get some immigrants from Pashtun, and manufacture anything you want. They make some pretty heavy weapons in Darra.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

If G17s are around G19 and G26s are usually available too.

Also, 1st through 3rd gen glocks can have their butts chopped to use the magazines of the more compact variants.


Remember that any well appointed machine shop can churn out cheap and nasty military small arms.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Every person you reveal the existence of a secret compound to is a risk. Contacts in the military-industrial complex don't have to possess information that can burn your whole operation even if they talk. In most cases, they could burn the person who approached them and then suggest a wider conspiracy, but the media would be much more likely to suspect Whitehall than Windsor. Granted, the government would eventually find out that none of their people had, in fact, been involved, but as long as some loyal courtiers were willing to fall on their swords publicly, the scandal should stop well short of the senior figures and the institution of the monarchy.

It will look like a group of current- and former military people switching the end use certificates of weaponry in order to continue supplying some Arab regime where the official government policy for now is non-intervention. A scandal, to be sure, but one that's happened many times before and no one taken even remotely seriously would dream of connecting the Queen to it.

If they were instead running a secret armament factory staffed by immigrants from Afghanistan or Pakistan, however, any leak at all will bring the full power of anti-terrorism agencies down onto their head, with truly fearsome resources to find out what's going on. And the money they use to finance it and whatever strings you pulled to get the immigrants into the country will be revealed. Since this way isn't as conductive* to the use of cutouts that can fall on their swords and provide a sufficiently plausible cover story**, the investigation will probably continue far longer than in the case above.

*For one thing, while the other options allows the money to come from a foreign monarch who doesn't have to open his books to anyone, renting or buying a factory in the UK, as well as getting a bunch of people through immigration, can't be done as easily and covertly. There would have to be UK names on papers and the money trail would be followed. If it led to a foreign monarch in this case, instead of assuming that it was a 'simple' matter of an illegal arms deal to a country not supposed to be bying from the UK, it would instead raise suspicions that the Arab ruler in question was financing terrorist attacks in the UK.
**What cover story could be plausible in this case? You don't move semi-skilled immigrants into the UK in order to circumvent arms control regulations or even to support any kind of black government team.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

There will have to be at least one and maybe two armourers in residence at the castle where the Rangers are going to be based after 2005. I had thought to make one an ex-military man, but the other would be a former employee at Holland & Hollad, Purdey, Greener or something similar.

Since high-technology interferes with magic, but simpler and less advanced mechanisms cause a lower amount of interference, I had thought that people with magical gifts of their own who went into the field with Rangers would prefer carrying either modern replicas of older guns, or in the ideal cases, refurbished classic guns. But the majority of the Rangers don't have any paranormal powers and are happy to use top-of-the-line TL8 technology.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

While this is true, it's very probable that any significant size monster hunting organization will want its own manufacturing capability anyway, for the simple reason that you want weapons and ammunition well suited to killing monsters; there's just no convenient supplier for things like silver bullets (on the other hand, the Raufoss Mk 211 is just too cool to not use on monsters).

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Exactly right. But I had planned to have this consist of one or two armourers, likely one who served in the military and one with a career in a British armament company*, assisted by a few of the handier Rangers in residence. They could handle modifications of existing weapons, maintainance and the handloading of special rounds, but asking them to build hundreds of guns from scratch would be excessive.

*If not the classic gunmakers mentioned above, someone from Royal Ordnance or Parker Hale might be nice. Both companies have customised guns that would be good for monster hunting, each in their own ways.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

How old is "classic"? A British friend gripes that nobody makes replicas of 19th century British revolvers, so he can't accompany his Wilkinson swords with a handgun suitable for colonial conditions. Apparently the consensus of British officers was that a small-bore, single-action Colt firing round ball was no good in Indian conditions, but the steel of originals is very suspect after 150 years. But if "anything TL 6" will work then they have lots of good choices.

Ammunition
 

While any speciality rounds such as jacketed silver or gold bullets, hawthorne shotgun slugs or hollow-points filled with garlic, holy water or silver nitrate obviously have to be hand-made, a large proportion of Otherwhere creatures appear to be harmed by iron. Steel is apparently close enough to be worthwhile, which makes AP and APHC rounds valuable.

Some ammunition is also steel-cased and steel-jacketed, for example many rounds made by Wolf (e.g. their Polyperformance line is polymer-coated steel-jacketed rounds). Obviously, that's not the same as an all-steel penetrator, but as they are no more expensive than standard copper-jacketed FMJ (less, usually), they can work for standard carry if you don't know what you'll face and at least cause an ironphobic enemy some discomfort in addition to what the lead does. Wolf sells .223 Rem and .308 Win rounds, which ought to cover your standard weaponry.

Are there any other good sources for bimetal/steel-jacketed rounds? Would any problems attend a British PSC wanting to order a steady diet of these? These are, after all, cheap rounds, good for training purposes and suchlike.

Fire is often good, against most anything. Which means that API rounds are great. Where can one get those, preferably chambered for the .308 Win or the .223 Rem?

How much trouble is it to handload AP, API, APHC or APHCI? Assume that you're willing to buy any parts that you can get without it raising eyebrows, coming to the attention of the press or the authorities? You can do so through a legal PSC, always with the caveat that they have to take care not to show too much money or go through too much ordnance.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Well, things that won't cause any problems with magic would be black-powder muzzleloaders made with pre-Industrial Revolution methods. But these obviously have some issues with reliability, ammunition capacity, accuracy and concealability, as well as being both hard to suppress and likely to excite comment if it had to be used to kill someone.

But a lot of the distictions at these low tech levels will be below even a single -1 in GURPS terms. They'll only matter when it comes to judging the total penalty going by everything that's being carried, where such tiny distinctions will encourage rounding in your favour.

That being said, the lower tech you go, the less your final penalty will end up being. A revolver using powder-and-ball will usually net you less than -1. A Victorian-era Webley would not give you more than a -1 penalty and probably not even that, as long as you weren't carrying anything else high-tech.

Cartridge revolvers are much less disruptive than cartridge semi-automatics, even ones of equivalent age. While the revolver might be only a -1, going up to -2 if you are wearing modern clothing and carrying keys and a wallet, the semi-auto will usually land you in -2 regardless of anything else.

Carrying a TL7-8 radio will add at least a -1 more and a cell phone on its own might add -2 to -3, if its got lots of computer stuff on it.

The final total penalty for this won't exceed -5, but that's still a lot of penalties when you're already at effective skill well below 10.

In all cases, storied weapons or ones with a connection to something mystical (or your own history) will maybe give what amounts to a bonus good for reducing your penalties for technological items. So originals might actually end up 1-2 points less than that.

To clarify the mechanics behind it, the penalty is equal to -(TL-3) of your gear and immediate surroundings. If you don't have a full range of high-tech equipment available at the TL, but only some artifacts, halve the penalty. If you have only a single item, divide by 3 or 4, depending on how much technology is packed into the item. Round in whichever way seems fair, judging by how much trouble is taken to avoid high-tech stuff. Making replicas of lower-tech stuff with higher-tech methods works to some extent, but even better results come from making such replicas with period methods.

For people who know about the supernatural, but have no magical powers of their own, carrying as much high-technology as possible actually gives a measure of protection from hostile powers. The disadvantage is that it also interferes with attempts by friendly magic-users to aid you with magic, but this usually balances out, so Rangers without magic will want the best equipment, regardless of TL (which tends to mean higher TL).

People who are going to use paranormal powers in the field will need to pay more attention to what they are carrying and wearing, striking some kind of balance between having enough tools to do their job and trying not to totally douse their magical abilities.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Well, ideally. But their full-time Rangers don't number more than ca 8 by the time they became fully operational in late 2005 and won't be more than 20 even by 2010. They would like to have a full platoon of full-time people, plus a headquarter element and support staff, by the end of 2012, but I doubt they'll have reached it.

Most of the weapons are for people in the know and with the right skills, but actually living and working somewhere else. Some of them perform occasional Ranger missions, to allow the full-time ones time off, replace wounded or psychologically incapacitated ones or just reinforce the teams.

Most of the pistols, in turn, are meant for academics who go into harm's way occasionally, accompanied by someone Ranger-qualified (usually a part-timer on assignment).

What partially explains why they need more weapons than they have people to wield them is that they have to have extras to enable the conspiracy to get rid of any that are fired at the scene of a crime which comes to the attention of the authorities. And the fact that they are trying to expand, as fast as they can do while trying to remain covert.*

Weaponry, as such, isn't going to be a huge part of the total cost. The construction costs for specialised buildings, living expenses for years for those members unable to make a regular living due to their duties to the group and other incidental cost factors will probably end up dwarfing even the cost of buying a thousand guns.

All of which means that for the primary Ranger armament, they'll be willing to accept sacrifices in economy and ease of supply in exchange for greater secrecy or better performance in the field.** For the reserve armament, they'll be willing to use whatever is easiest to get without risking exposure too much.

*Yes, I know that their goals are in conflict. It's not a comfortable situation and many senior Shadow Courtiers are deeply uncomfortable with what they see as paramilitary adventurerism. But the Queen decided that they couldn't stand by while they had the ability to help her subjects and so help they will.
**Two more conflicting goals, I realise. A lot of the decisions made by senior Shadow Courtiers revolve around trying to find a happy medium while operating under some very stressful constraints. Happily, however, among their ranks are a number of very adroit financiers, staff officers, administrators and professional wielders of informal influence.

Just so.

So far, I haven't found any likely links that point in that direction. Well, except for the Vatican's equivalent conspiracy, with whom they have a cautious (and informal) entente cordiale.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

One would think that G19s were available somewhere, yes. On the other hand, Icelandic police is armed with G17s, a decision made after consultation with British police, among others. And we don't own a single G19 or G26. People with small hands are just out of luck if we ever have to issue them.

In 2010, SO14, the branch of the London Met that handles protection of Royal Family, finally started issuing G26 to female constables. And this made news, because it was seen as a reverse of a long-standing policy that if you couldn't handle the standard weapons, you simply didn't get into certain units. For a long time, it seems that women with hands too small for a Glock 17 just had to accept that they were not going to become Authorised Firearm Officers.

True and if other methods turn out to risk exposure too much, I suspect that's what they'd do. But the former military and police Rangers will no doubt much prefer not to have to rely on home-made weaponry of dubious quality.

Using the machine shops and the gunsmithing skill of an old armourer sergeant to chop a number of retired L1A1 SLRs down into entry weapons with 15"-18" barrels, folding or retractable stocks and able to mount optics and tactical lights, however, might be a completely different matter. How practical would that be?

How much time would a lone gunsmith with a few ex-military assistants, working in a decent machine shop, need for a single weapon like that?

How much could he do for a 30-40 year old Browning HP, retired from British Army service? Would he have trouble buying the parts to refurbish them without someone starting to wonder?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

That is hilarious since the grip on a G26 (and G19) is identical in circumference to a G17. By giving them a weapon with only a 2 finger grip they actually made it worse for the small handed shooter.

Any decent machinist can make any modern firearm with a level of quality equal to or exceeding a mass produced example of the design provided the machinist has good data,appropriate tools, fixtures materials and time.



Replacing the furniture and top cover might take 10 min.

Chopping,crowning and threading the barrel might take 30 min if done the hard way. 5 min with a fixture.

You don't have to dick with the gas port since it is already adjustable.



Buying firearms parts from the US requires being in compliance with ITAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ms_Regulations

Dunno anything about any UK import regs.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Possibly the actual reasons had more to do with comfort for all-day carry and/or concealability when carried by slighter persons, wearing fashionable female wear. The news articles were adamant that this had something to do with female constables, at any rate. I don't recall any official comment, though.

Excellent. Data won't be a problem; tools and fixtures will be provided. The problem is materials and time.

No more than one or two armourers will be responsible for maintaining some 70-80 longarms and up to 300 pistols. Any necessary refurbishing and mounting of accessories will fall to him/them. For the first years, missions will be rare, but by 2010, there will be at least one per month, maybe more, which means that ca 80 people will go armed on missions over the year. Smallarms training will take place daily, but will not involve more than twenty people or so per day.

They'll have assistants, but not necessarily ones with any more training as armourers or machinists than just being a good soldier who is fairly apt with his hands, i.e. they'll know how to maintain weapons and check if there's any wear and tear necessiating professional attention, as well as mount accessories that are designed to fit.

Over time, some of the live-in members of the conspiracy who have sufficient interest and aptitute for gunsmithing could effectively learn the trade as apprentices. By 2010, some of them will have had the chance to do some work on the guns under the tutelege of a qualified armourer for several hours per day for maybe three or four years.

So if they got their hands on 20 old SLRs, it wouldn't be implausible to suppose that a month later, they had twenty 7.62mm monster hunting entry carbines?

Is there anything they'd have to buy which Parker Hale (to take an example) is obligated to report to the authorities? And/or which might be regarded as odd if a single gunsmith in the country bought a few dozen?

Is buying a folding stock something which entails much paperwork, if done locally? Does anyone know what UK law is on 'tactical-looking' after-market parts, like folding stocks? Could you use the same stock for a bolt-action hunting rifle as you could for an SLR?

Edit: Evidently, magazines, sights and furniture (like stocks) don't count as 'component parts' and thus fall outside the scope of UK gun legislation. The question that remains is whether people would think it was odd or potentially report it to someone if a single gunsmith ordered a couple of dozen stocks of a distinct paramilitary appearance.

In practical terms, what does that mean for new parts for an old, tired pistol? Would it raise any eyebrows if a registered gunsmith needed a hundred or so?

In a country where only the government is allowed to own pistols? Probably.

Edit: Yep, the parts count as firearms, which makes the risk rather high. I guess that leaves us with the question of how much could you accomplish if you wanted to improve the Malf. of a pistol that in GURPS terms has a Malf. number of 16 or so because of age and hard use without having access to any new parts? How long does it take to make the new parts yourself, from scratch? How realistic is making such a weapon Fine (Reliable), without being able to buy any after-market parts?

I get the feeling that high-quality magazines are particularly important for semi-automatic weapon reliability. Are there any improvements which could be done on the Browning HP magazines to improve feeding? Are any sold* that you think would justify improving the Malf.?

*Since magazines aren't officially gun parts, they technically aren't subject to UK gun legislation. Buying a lot of them might raise eyebrows, but you are legally allowed to do so even by mail order or through the Internet, at least according to the website I checked. Of course, I could have missed some regulation which forbids it. In any event, buying a few through some fake corporation and using them as models for constructing some more might be possible.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Airsoft League.

Not much.
The only maintenance part on a BHP (or any semi-auto pistol) are the springs.

If our talented machinist has good data,tools and materials they could be churning out small parts in a couple hours of setup.
Program the CNC, set it up and drink a couple cups of coffee and read a novel while it makes your parts.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The bugs have pretty much been worked out of the basic 13 round BHP magazine over the last 80 years or so.
BHPs, as a rule, tend to be stone cold reliable.


FWIW, many OEM magazines are made by Mec-gar, not the actual manufacturer of the firearm.
http://www.mec-gar.com/

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

In GURPS, they don't rate the same Malf. Very as SIG-Sauers, Glocks, HKs or other high-end TL8 firearms.

You think that as long as they were well-maintained by a qualified gunsmith, with any tired springs and worn parts replaced, it would be quite plausible for them to rate Malf. Very?

I understand that a lot of the UK Brownings were considered less than reliable, having been in constant use, sometimes in very harsh places, for at least thirty years and sometimes up to fifty.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Good idea!

Maybe throw in a couple of re-enaction societies too. You can buy de-activated guns, particularly ones made before 1880 (or replicas thereof), with much less legal hassle in the UK. And I'm assuming that a qualified gunsmith can generally reverse that process fairly easily and without any loss of functionality. Given that criminals have been known to do it (but probably less reliably).

And for arming magicians among the Shadow Court, replicas of old school weapons, particularly if reconstructed using only hand tools, would be prefered, as they don't interfere with their own magic.

Maybe one pirate re-enaction group and one Victorian Colonial military one.

Even fifty-year-old ones, in constant service all that time?


Excellent!

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Yep.

I've got a grungy Israeli Kareen that has seen a couple thousand rounds of dirty steel cased Wolf and has never been resprung or cleaned, only squirted with motor oil (Mobil-1) before storage. It has yet to bobble.



I've always thought that the concept of Malf. was slightly wonky. Guns either work or they don't.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The way the UK mandates that it is done would basically require building a new firearm.



Sure. It takes tens of thousands of rounds to wear out the frame or slide of a pistol and the only time most service pistols are shot is at qualifications.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Excellent. Then I think that the full-size pistols used by the Rangers will certainly be refurbished L9A1s, with new magazines and replaced springs.

They do need a lot of more compact sidearms and back-up weapons, however. What are their options there?

You can replace the thick grip on a Browning with a slightly thinner one fairly easily, I assume. What about a chop-job like this one? How long does it take for our hypothetical armourer? Does he need any parts he can't make himself fairly easily? Does it introduce any problems? Reduce reliability?

Would it, in GURPS terms, result in a Browning with stats that had the same relation to the full-size one as the SIG P228 has to a full-size P226 or a Glock 19 has to a Glock 17?

I assume that even if it's possible to make a Bulk -1 back-up piece out of a Browning Hi-Power, the result would be a terrible and sad device with little relation to the illustrious parent. Am I wrong? It would be enormously difficult, wouldn't it? Would it work at all?

Even if it did, it might be harder than just building new Walther PPs/PPKs or any other small pistol with parts made in the CNC?

What about S&W Model 10s (in .38/200)? If you have access to dusty old UK armouries, police and military, you ought to be able to find several cases. Rescue them from destruction, if nothing else. How hard would these be to refurbish and 'Fitz' down to Bulk -1? How parts-compatible would such weapons be with S&W Model 36 revolvers, if they got some of those?

Edit: And, of course, the Webleys. How practical would it be to use (hardly fired) Webley IV and VI in .38/200 as the basis for a cut-down subcompact firearm, to be carried by academics and other field agents who need some protection, but don't want to carry a bulky firearm?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Not in all cases. A recent (ca 2007) news report had an investigative reporter take such a deactivated weapon to a gunsmith and he could get it into active condition within less than an hour.

Edit: Which was because those weapons were deactivated before a 1995 change to the law which required more modifications, basically ruining the barrel (down to half the length, at least) and firing pin. Still, that seems like it would be less work to fix than making a whole new weapon.

In any case, muzzle-loading pistols, muskets or rifles are not hugely complex machines with many moving parts. Even cap-and-ball revolvers seem to me much simpler* than a modern semi-automatic. I think the same applies to cartridge revolvers.

*Which is not to say easier to maintain or more reliable. ;)

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I'm not a shooter, and these forums have many gun geeks. But aren't there strong practical advantages on standardizing on a handful of models and calibres? Training, maintenance, spare parts and ammunition, issue of new or replacement weapons, and so on. I would expect that this were particularly true for training new shooters in a hurry, whereas there are few-enough Rangers that they could easily use whatever they like and can get.

I think that the Canadian Forces still use the Browning Grand Puissance in 9x19mm Parabellum. Part of that is undoubtedly our petrified military procurement system, part of that the good design of that weapon and rarity that soldiers use handguns in combat. I believe that they were considering replacing it as it is hard to replace worn-out weapons and parts.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

There are. These, however, are not as important for a very small force of 8-20 men, even with 30-40 part-timers who occasionally join. Also, in order to enjoy economies of scale, you have to be buying your weapons from the same people all the time, which is directly contrary to security concerns which would spread out the acquisition of weapons through multiple semi-aware contacts on the grey market.

All in all, they'd love to standardise if they could, but they'd rather maximise their security and lower the risk of being blown over something like buying new weapons. If that increases their costs, well, then it does. As mentioned earlier, the cost of the guns is trivial compared to the cost of a secret compound or supporting fifty people for a decade while they can't work.

They do use a lot of ammo, once they've set up their training facilities at some point in 2005. On the other hand, the calibers that the Rangers train with are fairly standardised, even if the weapons may not be. All pistols meant for front-line use are 9mm. There might be a few PP automatics and revolvers with less standarised calibers, but those are mainly meant as self-defence wepaons for academics (each of whom will select one type and train with only that). The longarms are liable to be 9mm and 7.62mm, with the possibility of 5.56mm carbines if they can get their hands on any.

I expect that obtaining up to a million* cartridges per year may pose a severe challenge to their secrecy, as well as being a non-trivial expense (at least 10% of their budget, excluding special gifts like the free use of expensive land and suchlike). I'd welcome suggestions on how to deflect suspion from any organisation buying that much ammunition and in calibers not often used in the UK except by military and police. So far, I think I'll go with having the PSC operated by some of the Rangers (part-time Rangers, as they actually do perform some PSC work) pretend to be deeply involved in training tactical units in the Arab world. Would probably be best if they actually did some of that. Then, with the consent of a few of these friendly foreigners, they'd fiddle the books so that they buy massively more ammo than they actually need.

Edit: I'd be willing to cut these ammo numbers in half, if it proved particularly difficult to get amounts this huge. Even down to one-fourth, but no lower than that. The Rangers do need to train trusted academics and researchers in self-defence and, more importantly, they need a higher standard of firearm proficiency than almost any real organisation. Because real criminals or other OpFor don't try to dodge bullets, have probability alteration field that make it much more likely to miss or are able to cover 30 yds in two seconds.

Extra Edit: Reloading their ammunition would greatly cut down on the need to buy massive amounts for training purposes.

Does anyone (Sam Cade, HANS, Roger Burton-West, other?) know whether there are practical reloading machines that allow you to quickly change between configurations that allow you to reload several different calibers, e.g. one that could fairly easily be adjusted to work for many or all of the following: 7.65x17mm Walther, .38/200 (or .38 S&W), 9x19mm Parabellum, 5.56x45mm NATO (or .223 Rem) and 7.62x51mm NATO (or .308 Win)?

If you have something like this for 9mm ammo, how hard is it to reconfigure for 5.56mm ammo or 7.62mm? Or this one in 7.62mm, how hard to reconfigure for the other ammunition types you need? Would it not be worth doing? Or could you change the configuration on a regular basis; running the machine for different types of ammunition on alternating weeks?

Alternatively, would it be more practical to buy several smaller ones, with the 9mm and the two rifle caliber ones being able to handle the greatest volume? What would you expect to pay for a workshop enabling you to reload ca 1,000,000 rounds per year (with as little hassle as possible), with most of those divided between 9mm, 5.56mm and 7.62mm?

Are there strict legal controls on reloading machines? Even if someone is a licensed gunsmith or an official at a legal gun club and thus entitled to buy such things even in a restrictive jurisdiction like the UK, would there be a potential for an eagle-eyed government employe to spot that someone had bought equipment sufficient to keep an average company of soldiers afloat in ammo and become curious? Or is there no need to register such purchases at any central database, thus making the risk slight as long as you don't buy all the machines from the same place?

The Rangers would also have smaller reloading machines and handloading tools at their castle; for truly custom cartridges, with exotic projectiles or one-of-a-kind chamberings. The automatic reloading machines would be to make training ammunition in the massive amounts they'd require.

The first Rangers and probably most everyone up until now all arrive knowing how to shoot, having been military men or London Met Authorised Firearm Officers.

And it's not as if the Rangers are trained in a hurry. With the exception of the half-dozen** who went on the first mission before the Rangers properly existed, no one has gone out without at least a year in training and learning about the supernatural and methods to combat it.

*At least since 2008. They'd have needed less before that and before they had their own secret compound with a firing range, they six or so proto-Rangers, assisted by some part-timers and a rotation of trusted people who need to learn self-defence, would have been lucky to be able to fire off 150,000 rounds per year.
**All AFOs/SFOs (equivalent to armed response or SWAT) or former elite military. They also all had a minimum of five years of being involved in developing methods of fighting the supernatural. Three of them had been doing so since the early 90s. All theoretical up to that point, but I think it would be fair to say that they didn't lack knowledge of firearms or training in their use.

Same as the Poms, except they've finally made the decision to change over. Starting 2013, as in now, they'll replace all Brownings with Glock 17s.

They had already replaced many of them in spec-ops circles with SIGs, mostly P226 and P229.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

How about acquiring street guns by way of law enforcement? Surely it would be easier to let a few guns walk out of the evidence room than out of the armory. Easier still if the guns never got entered into evidence in the first place.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Whilst I’m not sure exactly what challenges will face your Rangers, I would make the following points...

Semi-automatic military weapons in common calibres are great when:
You need to suppress the enemy with weight of fire,
You need to use common cartridges in line with other agencies,
You need a fast magazine system for ongoing fire fights.

Perhaps these are not necessarily useful for your rangers. This could allow them to use civilian weapons that are much more easily available.

For example, the .44 magnum is based on the .44 special, and weapons that will chamber the former should chamber the latter. Using .44 magnum pistols and lever carbines, with low power ammo for the academics etc... could make life a lot easier than setting up a gun factory, or smuggling from overseas, reworking existing guns etc. Personally I would prefer a .44 magnum carbine as more useful entry weapon than a short barrel SLR, with its associated muzzle flash and over-deep penetration.

.44 magnum can also easily be made subsonic when loaded with ADI Trailboss powder or similar, with bullet weights still giving reasonable damage.

A few .375 H&H magazine safari rifles would round out the collection for larger, or further targets.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Yes, I think they will have done some of that, especially when there was a great rush of gun amnesties and collection efforts and many guns ended up being destroyed. They could have obtained some of them when they were labelled 'destroyed'. Use them in cases where they need to leave a human body behind, where it will form the basis for a police investigation, and then simply destroy the gun for real.

But by far the most of these street guns will be low-caliber, low-capacity, low-quality weapons not good for actual combat.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

BHPs are pretty small already. While the butt is very wide (even with thin grips) it is fairly short and the top of the slide is narrow and rounded. Most modern service pistols lock up using the barrel hood which necessitates a square slide.

As to the chopped pistol in your link.... Wow. That would take forever ( a couple days of hard work) and require some impressive skill to keep it from looking like crap and being functional If there is a CNC mill handy it would be more time effective just to make a new pistol.

Chopped BHPs have been done on a production basis by the Argies as the FM Detective


Fitzing a revolver is pretty easy. 3 cuts, remount front sight and round the butt with a belt grinder. Dab cold blue on anything left shiny.Maybe a couple hours.

As for parts comparability between a model 10 and a 36? Not at all. The 10 is a "K" frame, a 36 is a smaller "J" frame.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Still, from picture size comparisons, it looks like the Browning Hi-Power is more or less as big as a Beretta 92, albeit slightly thinner. That's much less comfortable to wear as a concealed carry piece than pistols in a 'compact' size range, such as the Glock 19, HK USP Compact, SIG P229 or S&W M&P Compact. Am I overestimating the size of the Browning? Would it be comparable with some of these as a regular-wear/concealed carry piece, instead of thinking about it as about equivalent in size to the Colt M1911, Glock 17 or SIG P226?

I've only held the Glocks, Colt and the SIG of the above weapons, so I don't really have a good feel for the Browning outside of pictures.

Is it really easier and more effective to make a pistol from scratch than spend two days modifying one? Why do military and police armouries sometimes bother to do extensive modifications on old ones, like rechambering them or suchlike, then?

That looks like they went with the 'building a whole new weapon based on the Browning' route. Is that a false impression on my part?

In any event, this would be a 'compact' Bulk -2 weapon, not a 'subcompact' Bulk -1, right?

So if you need one hundred Bulk -1 weapons and have access only to Bulk -2 semi-autos and very old Bulk -2 revolvers, it's clearly easier to modify the revolvers?

Ok. Which would you think was more practical as the basis for a 'Fitzed' self-defence weapon in the modern day; a S&W Model 10 .38/200 made during WWII or a Webley IV or VI in .38/200 made sometimes between 1930-1945? Going by which is likely to be more reliable, which produces the smaller and more comfortable piece after 'Fitzing' and any other concerns which might influence the choice. If it is about equal, they might have both.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

You have access to the "old boys club" at the top of the military so use that.

Have multiple units involved in decommissioning or relocating a base, there are plenty in the north, then have one of those units relocate part of the older stock to your storage facility and have it "destroyed" from there.

You probably want an army unit in your back pocket any way in case you ever need to get noisy. So once you've wormed you way into their command structure sending them on odd maneuvers now and again would be a natural smoke screen.

I know you can match weapons to bullets, but how would you track that specific weapon back to the storage facility?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

While suppression fire is, indeed, not a major concern, it is replaced by another specific to operatives who must confront tulpas made from dreamstuff; Otherworld creatures made from some magical substance; or powerful spirits who have taken physical form through possessing corpses or incorporating a form from raw material around the place they manifest.

Sometimes the Rangers face foes that are so preternaturally tough or heal so quickly that emptying a magazine (or even several) at them only serves to momentarily stun them. Under GURPS rules (and probably realistically too), you can pump a lot more rounds into something jumping you from 2-7 yards in the one to two seconds you might have with a RoF 9-13 automatic carbine than you can with semi-automatic one, even if you have maxed the Fast-Firing technique and are shooting nine times per second with the semi-auto.

Fast magazine changes are also important for firefights against incredibly fast and/or tough creatures that don't go down even when hit.

It is true that the Rangers do not need to share ammunition with other agencies. On the other hand, they do want to be able to buy a lot of ammunition without raising too many eyebrows and they don't want to spend too much of their budget on training ammunition. I don't see .44 Magnum cartridges as being conductive to either. A cover story that your PSC is training Arab tactical teams might work for 9mm, 5.56mm and even 7.62mm, but it's going to ring a bit false for .44 Magnum ammunition.

And while it's possible for someone in Great Britain to own some kind of odd bolt or lever action hunting carbine in .44 Mag, probably legally, even, assuming that the total length is more than 60 cm and the barrel is more than 30 cm, I doubt any hunter is going to be able to buy hundreds of thousands of rounds per year. Nor can any gun club, not without taking the risk that some local police will become curious.

Aside from the issue of ammunition availability, I don't see any legal differences in the UK between .44 Magnum pistols or semi-automatic longarms and 9mm ones. Both are, apart from some truly rare exceptions, unavailable to civilians, period. Full stop.

At least the 9mm ones exist in government armouries and/or are occasionally bought and sold by British companies for PMC/PSC or foreign armed forces. What few .44 Magnums there are in Britain are either in private hands of some collector with a very old grandfathered licence, in the hands of very rich hunter or collector with a more recent licence he got through undue social influence* or there illegally. That last is going to be an even smaller group than the other two.

*While such influence is available to some of the Shadow Courtiers, it's generally not a good idea to use your personal influence to obtain a very rare weapon chambered in a caliber almost no one uses where you live and then potentially use that weapon to commit crimes. If you must use influence to obtain weapons, it is probably best if the weapons don't leave brass and bullets that can easily be identified as belonging to them.

The .44 Mag might indeed make a superior round for an entry carbine than the 7.62x51mm in a chopped-SLR. But while the SLRs were being phased out of the UK services just at the time the Shadow Court started to build a stockpile of weponry, I'm concerned it might be hard to obtain 20+ carbines in .44 Mag in the UK. Let alone 50.

That is a concern and might even justify obtaining a small number of such carbines, for covert work when you still need considerable firepower. Do you know of any method which the Rangers could use to obtain 2-6 of them in the UK?

That they might. I'm not sure how often the opportunity for a shot at more than 75m will come up. It will be possible, on lonely moors and suchlike, but it will be the exception. I think they'll own a scoped rifle per team, but I had been thinking Accuracy International PM or AW. It might be worth looking into a larger round, however, as long as it's a speciality item anyway. Might want to go with a semi-auto with a big magazine, if available.

Do any UK-based manufacturers make a good large-caliber safari or big game hunting rifle in the modern day, maybe for export? Large capacity ones, let alone semi-automatics, mostly won't be legal for the domestic market.

I suppose they could buy these abroad and import them as legal hunting guns. Just modify them in their machine shop to remove any UK-specific modifications that limit the magazine size, for example.

Now, close-quarters against something that can eat 9mm and even 5.56mm rounds like candies, feeling mere pinpricks, that's something the Rangers really worry about. And for that they need at least semi-automatic heavy caliber weapons, with a decent size magazine. What kind of legal hunting rifle could you use as the basis for a large-caliber carbine useful at CQB ranges and also accurate at somewhat longer ranges if fitted with optics? I'm thinking about something along the lines of a Crane Mk 14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, except semi-automatic and chambered for an even bigger round.

Edit: If double-rifles weren't so infernally expensive and pretty, using one in .600 Nitro Express or even something more powerful as the basis for a short-range monster slayer would be cool. One could buy/make a CZ 550 modified to chamber anything up to the aptly named 600 Overkill for only 15-20% of the cost of a double with similar power. I wonder how much you could reduce the Bulk of such a weapon while retaining some effectiveness and not guaranteeing that you'll hurt yourself with it?

*Obviously, they used to make the best.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

That's fairly close to how I'm imagining them getting their hands on a substantial quantity of old L1A1 SLRs (Semi-auto FN FALs) and L9A1s (Browning Hi-Powers). Could maybe do the same for old Webleys and S&Ws from the war. Not to mention maybe trying to get some old L47A1s (Walther PPs), L2A1/A2/A3 Sterlings and/or L91A1 (MP5A3s)*.

Of course, they'll only have a relationship with an officer or two and maybe a couple of long-serving NCOs, not any large number of men. But I assume they could arrange for an inside job with just one officer and a sergeant, as long as they had other people outside the unit in question who could provide the right paperwork.

*More likely to come from police armouries, in which case it would be the MP5SFA2/A3.

They have a very cordinal relationship with a number of officers and enlisted who have served with the Blues and Royals or the HCR in general. A small number of still serving personnel as well. Same for for the Brigade of Gurkhas, especially 2nd Btn/Royal Gurkha Rifles, Gurkha Company (Mandalay) at Brecon and the Queen's Gurkha Signals.

But many of the serving military people with whom they have relationship, while aware of the existence of the supernatural and in agreement that the armed forces need to have plans in place for it, may not be privy to the extremely illegal actions being taken by the conspiracy to combat it. They know that they investigate the supernatural and informally coordinate planning for the time when it becomes public and they probably know that they protect the Queen in secret, but the fact that they send out teams of men to actively hunt dangerous supernatural beings and even humans who abuse the paranormal in sufficiently terrifying ways, is very closely held. Some police and military officers might even wink and nod at diverting some old weapons due for destruction toward the conspiracy, for the purpose of modification into weapons useful for protecting the Queen from supernatural threats, but not be willing to take more direct and violent action on behalf of what amounts to an illegal conspiracy.

So it's a careful balancing act. Gently guide the armed forces and other arms of the lawful (but oblivious) government toward a new doctrine and organisation that will apply in the post-reveal world; but do so without exposing the uglier aspects of the conspiracy around the Queen. Would be easier if the conspiracy confined itself to subtle influence, but the decision was made to take an active role.

I don't know much about the capabilities of the new UK Ballistics Database. I know weapons decommissioned before the 2008 date it came online would be excluded, but I don't know if every firearm sold or issued in the UK is fired first to store the data in case it's needed.

In any case, to avoid such unpleasantness, weapons made before that date might be best. Or at least ones made for export and duly filed as sold to Oman or Bahrain, complete with end-user certificates to that effect. I doubt such weapons are entered into the database as UK weapons.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I had the same notion as others about just setting up a small machine shop, so I did a little research. A machine shop is fine for making the receiver. Apparently the machinery to accurately build barrels is a much larger issue, and the machinery is specialized, so importing it is going to raise serious eyebrows.

My understanding is that barrels are a wear item. I know Beretta recommends replacing the barrel on the M92 after 10,000 rounds. The part is also quite easy to replace, it's literally a drop in part, no need even to thread it into place. One of the reasons I bought one, because it makes cleaning really easy.

I also know from friends who served in the military that with heavy use barrels degrade accuracy greatly. One never liked being issued a colt 1911 when he was on guard duty, because they were heavily worn and not accurate to any kind of distance. If he'd ever needed to use it, he'd have to wait for his opponent to be dangerously close.

This link was especially informative for this research: http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that they could have gotten their hands on an old, forgotten MoD Whitney & Pratt B-series Hydraulic rifling machine. Maybe it would be in poor repair and lack vital parts, but given that some barrelmakers apparently build their own machines for cut rifling using a CNC machine, I should think making parts to repair one is fairly practical to do.

If that's too huge a task (not to mention too much machine for what will probably not exceed 20-30 rifle barrels per year at present), they could buy or build a smaller cut rifling or a newer, handier, button rifling machine. Buy if a licensed gunsmith can do so without too much attention, build it with their CNC machines if buying would mean too much potential publicity or just that his name entered the consciousness of local police as a source of weapons built from scratch.

The link you posted mentions only rifle barrels. Presumably, the machinery needed for much shorter barrels is less cumbersome.

I wonder what kind of equipment you'd need to be able to make ca 20 Browning Hi-Power barrels per year, maybe ten revolver barrels for Webleys and S&Ws and the odd barrel for another pistol model.

Then there are SMG barrels. What kind of equipment do you need for them? In the case of MP5s, I could believe it was very similar to that of rifles. A less accurate weapon like the Sterling, however, might not be quite so demanding. In any case, I imagine that they'd need some 20 SMG barrels per year.

That's a concern for the Browning Hi-Powers as well and probably the SLRs, frankly. They'll want to change barrels before fielding them, if possible.

And given that if the ammunition issue is solvable, the primary weapons of the Rangers will see 200-300 rounds go through per week in training, I think that they'd need a new barrel once a year. At least every other year.

It was, very much so. Thank you.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

If these monster hunters work for the Queen wouldn't it make sense for her agents to simply back channel some firearms.

Guns aren't super common in the UK but they are out there and a covert government agency would have no trouble getting the permits.

Regardless likely there would be two classes, "quasi legal" weapons like double shotguns and some bolt action rifles and maybe big bore African Game rifles like 600 Nitro double (had with a FAC)

The other class would be illegal arms. I'd suggest Russian arms are comparatively easy to get (AK and Makarovs) with ammo from the continent.

Alternately you could go domestic and they'd just be taken from military stockpiles somewhere, reported as destroyed or paperwork lost and viola.

You could get FN or Enfield rifles with ball, AP, tracer and incendiary and maybe some rebuilt Browning High Powers as well.

Revolvers would be more useful though since weird ammo probably won't feed in a Browning. In such cases refurbished Enfield, S&W and Webley revolvers from a stash somewhere could be issued.

lastly, if the conspiracy goes deep enough The Home Secretary (IIRC) could simply issue a waiver and have it classified under the Official Secrets Act. That way you could have pretty near anything up to a Lara Croft sized armory.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The 92/96s are huuuge pistols.

The BHP is closer in size to a G19 but carries much easier IWB since they are both thin and round.


Yes. While the CNC is running the operator can go do something else. And doesn't require a master welder which a completely separate skillset.

..and since the machine is set up to do an operation, don't do it once, do it twenty times.



They don't.

That is correct. They were already making BHP clones. It is easier to make them in the desired abbreviated form than modify them.



Lord yes.


The S&W. Though the .38/200/.38S&W cartridge has been wholly obsolete for decades.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Note that if you have a barrel making machine you probably don't need to ditch whole firearms after traceable incidents. New barrel makes for new bullet stria.

Although I would expect incidents in the UK involving military-type firearms to be so conspicuous that it wouldn't make much difference. For example and from recent news blurbs:Chicago is the US poster child for firearms crime these days but last year though the siezed c.750 illegal frearms only 4% of those were "assualt rifles".

I would expect that that military-grade weapons would be far more conspicuous i9n UK crime statistics. I think your group needs the Permanent Secretary to the Home Minister to have gone to Eton with the head of your group or something like that. Said conveninet firiend could bury a lot of incident reports under the Official Secrets Act and "MIWhatever v. Terrorists" seems so much more likely than "secret rogue group v. vampires" to whoever is likely to file the first crime scene reports.

You don't really seem to want to simplify the problem but if you did you could arm the group with SAS hand-me-downs. At least US Special Forces upgrade theri gear cosntantly and the precise IDs of such weapons were all classified "Burn Before Reading" in the first place. "Fell off the back of a Black lorry" would be all the explanation you needed for a _lot_ of things.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

If by 'back channel', you mean having friendly foreign monarch purchase British-made armaments or firearms phased out in UK service, with the proper end-user certificates and everything, and then contrive to have empty crates shipped to abroad and the actual weapons moved to a secret location, that's what they'll do for as many of them as they get away with.

This will attract much less attention, of course, if the monarch in question is used to buying such weapons for his armed forces and police. In that case, he merely has to agree to order slightly more than he needs, with the understanding that by thus helping the British divert weapons to spots where legal end-user certificates may not be available*.

It is because of this method of acquisition that I'm primarily interested in weapons that are produced in factories in the UK or were produced there at some point between 1992 to the modern day. Weapons that were common among UK services but have been phased out are also good candidates, as many of those actually were sold to the Gulf.

*A cover story that many of the Gulf governments would find nothing strange about, as they've done this on behalf of Whitehall often enough. As long as the conspiracy can arrange for the negotiation to be handled by an ex-military or intelligence type who can pretend to be still official without it occuring to the foreign government to question him, it ought to work out fine. In any case, Sultan Qaboos and some of his fellow monarchs have a very friendly relationship with some people involved in the conspiracy and have the most affectionate fraternal relationship with HM, so even if they suspected something, they'd probably keep her secrets.

I was considering big bore doubles, in particular for those members of the conspiracy with their own magical powers, as high-technology interferes with their use. One problem, however, is how expensive they are. You can arm a platoon of Rangers for what one of them costs, almost. Another is that if you shoot one at a scene where a human is injured or killed, it's a somewhat distinctive piece of forensic evidence. On the other hand, there are upwards of 50,000 such weapons in private hands in the UK, so it's not as if it would immediately lead to any one suspect.

Probably it is riskier to have contact with criminal organisations than it is to arrange for the weapons on the grey market.

And so they do. Every time they get a chance to do so without taking an unjustifiable risk of discovery. Much of their weaponry will have been accumulated through several opportunistic acquisition, taking advantage of a well-placed contact at the right time.

This is another reason why I doubt very much they'll be lucky enough to have a high degree of standarisation. Bluntly speaking, for much of their early history, there was no plan to run direct action black ops team. Any weapons acquired in the early period of their existence would have been meant for self-defence for investigators in the conspiracy; for use by a covert planning and training facility developing paranormal tactics in anticipation of serving as a cadre for the armed forces once the existence of the supernatural is revealed*; or to arm a backup team of unofficial royal bodyguards who are supernatural-savvy.

The Rangers are a development that not all the members of the conspiracy are comfortable with and they have existed only from 2005. I should think that much of their weaponry is repurposed from the earlier days. They may have successfully obtained some weapons after that time, of course, but not enough to arm all of them, let alone the part-time Ranger-qualified people that sometimes join them or the investigators and academics who sometimes need to carry for self-protection.

*So far, unofficial attempts by well-placed (if expendable should the worst happen) members to get Whitehall to acknowledge it have not proven successful.

I imagine that all of these will form a part of their stockpile; as mentioned before in the thread.

Even if the conspiracy reached an individual with the theoretical power to issue such licences, there is a risk that a license which allows too much military weaponry would attract attention from other civil servants and police. Not to mention that if there are only a few such weapons in civilian hands, any crime committed with one will focus the beady-eyed gaze of official people on the holders of the permit. Far better to have the weapon safely away in the Gulf (on paper at any rate).

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

*Coff coff*

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Let me confirm that. You could conceal it under a really heavy parka if you were broad of shoulder and narrow of waist. The upside is that there's enough metal in the frame that if you need to beat somebody to death with it, you won't feel under-equipped.

It's made for open carry pretty much exclusively.

If you need concealed carry and prefer the Beretta design choices, they do have smaller guns designed for concealed carry, but smaller is definitely a relative term with Beretta. I'm planning to do some field research on that this weekend, because I do like the Beretta designs.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Wonder how much it varies with the type of gun and ammunition. Any bullet that typically isn't even bullet-shaped after firing seems improbable for matching.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The quote seemed to be talking about cases, rather than bullets.

I thought the model of gun could be determined by case markings, but only sometimes the exact gun (e.g., when wear or other factors have created a unique set of markings). Matching the rifling marks on a bullet is more precise and unique, though I don't know how intact the bullet has to be.

In any case, the wise covert operative won't leave shell casings lying around. Changing barrels would be a good idea too.

Or use a shotgun -- no rifling, no markings, right? Or do they still leave some ballistic evidence?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Then perhaps the L9A1s can be used as carry pieces for the Ranger-qualified personnel without much in the way of modifications.

Would a gunsmith who was a member in good standing of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers and had worked at Purdey from ca 1960-2001 be likely to be a master welder? Would he also be familiar with more CNC machines or would that require him to retrain, for example with the help of a younger colleague, late of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers?

I'd love it if the armourers had the skills necessary to make weapons with lower TL methods as well as the efficient high-tech CNC and barrel rifling machines. It would be great if one of them could use hand tools only to make period accurate reconstructions of TL5 and TL6 firearms, as speciality pieces for the occasional magician. Maybe even TL4 pistols, blunderbusses and jaeger rifles, though that's not a priority.

While not pistols specifically, what about AK-type weapons rechambered for 5.56x45mm? Are they all built from scratch, based on AK designs? Or Brens converted to 7.62x51mm?

Aren't there any savings, in time or materials costs, in using as much of the older weapon as is still good?

It's because the weapons are obsolete that I suspect they might be able to collect a large number of them without anyone worrying too much about it. Scour armouries of police forces and the services, having senior supply officers mark them as 'destroyed' et voila. The fact that the .38/200 is not very powerful or accurate at ranges longer than 10 yds or so is not all that important for a weapon meant to serve as a concealable self-defence piece for people who hope never have fire a shot in anger. Even if they are called upon to do so; they'll be using the pistol at CQB ranges anyway.

But would that mean that it was hard to get ammunition? Would it be much more expensive to make the ammunition for them yourself? Which would be more practical, rechambering (or making from scratch) up to a hundred revolvers for concealed carry in a common caliber or using these and making the ammunition yourself?

Edit: From all I can tell, the arms that the London Met had in the lockers for emergency, not to mention drawn by the Flying Squad and others when necessary, remained Webley and S&W Model 10 revolvers at least up until the 70s. I don't know if they adopted new sidearms to replace them before going to the Glock. Could the revolvers have been converted from .38/200? Do Webleys come in any more modern chamberings?

Extra Edit: I found two sources, one by our own HANS and one by the UK Police Firearms Officer Association, which together appear to confirm that S&W Model 10s and Model 36s only started to be adopted in 1974. Until then (and for an unknown period of time while the changeover process was happening), the handguns that were available by the Met's Flying Squad and suchlike were, indeed, Enfield and Webley revolvers in .380/200. Walther PP pistols were used by Police Protective Officers.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Another benefit of having a well-stocked gunsmithing/machinist workshop (and a smithy). They'll have a budget of £1,000,000 to set it up in 2005 and will have a reasonable budget to add new tools after that if doing so would serve to reduce expenditures in other areas or meet an important operational need.

In our world, the UK has maybe 500-800 homicides in a fairly average year. Less than twenty involve firearms. Maybe one of them per year is with an 'assault' weapon.

Of course, we are considering an alternate world setting. The UK homicide rate in 2010 in this setting was around 1,200. Some sixty-four involved firearms. Twelve of them involved assault weapons. More than a hundred of them featured causes of death which baffle medical science and several hundred more were enough to cause private misgivings on the behalf of investigating officers.*

Of course, most of the foes faced by Rangers don't leave bodies behind, which makes their crimes more likely to be public disturbances and weapons violations. While taken seriously, these don't attract quite as much manpower and expensive lab time as murders.

*Most of these are cases where the Rangers did not arrive in time or, more commonly, didn't know anything about the case until they heard rumours of it afterwards.

While there will be some connections of that sort, the Shadow Court is not trying to keep a secret forever. They would welcome it if the government acknowledged the supernatural. What they do try to avoid is having their members arrested or raising enough suspicion so that a full-scale investigation of their efforts is launched.

To that effect, they subtly steer friends within the police and security services away from any belief in a quasi-official conspiracy behind the bizarre shooting incidents and instead suggest focusing on the apparent esoteric elements surrounding such deaths (and hundreds of others). They are 'helped' by the fact that the Shadow Court is not able to intervene in more than perhaps 10% of serious paranormal crimes. So it is not as if all the bizarre crimes or even many of them feature military weaponry.

A lot of senior policemen, MI5 and Whitehall people are growing agitated over the increase in serious crimes and the bizarre elements of many of them. But regardless of private suspicions of a growing minority within many agencies, the government is still not prepared to believe in the supernatural as a cause.

This is not because of any particular blindness on the part of politicians. It's just that more around 95% of people don't really believe in the supernatural as an active force in their day-to-day world. Oh, they may hold some beliefs which properly speaking are beliefs in the supernatural, just as many people do in our world, but they don't expect monsters and magic to actually be present in their lives. In our world, 58% of Britons say they believe in the supernatural. In this setting, maybe 66% would state the same. But stating that you believe in UFOs or fairies is not the same as expecting to see them or planning to defend yourself against them.

So despite up to two-thirds claiming belief, only perhaps 5% of the population truly believe in the supernatural as an active force in the world, as dangerous as a gun or a knife. Mostly they are people in professions where they or trusted colleagues have come across something inexplicable or just ordinary people who have witnessed something clearly supernatural. So far, most of the senior figures in politics, civil service, security services or military aren't believers. Those who are will sometimes form informal networks within their agencies and the Shadow Court has been diligent in making use of them as semi-aware contacts or, in exceptional cases, recruiting them.

The L9A1s (Browning HP) that I'm postulating as the most common carry piece for Ranger-qualified people in the conspiracy are precisely such a piece of SAS/SBS/Royal Marine/Para hand-me-down kit. The SLRs are general issue hand-me-downs.

Some exotica could also come from SAS armouries, of course. I'm considering having them obtain a few F.R. MC-51s, for example. And maybe a few Armalites.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I'm very interested in knowing the state of forensics in that area, as it has important applications for any modern game.

Even if the risk is slight, however, I think that the Shadow Court would not shy at spending up to £100,000 per year in minimising it by changing barrels and/or destroying compromised weapons. After all, they're spending far more than that on other aspects. The living expenses and salaries of full-time members are in the excess of £1,000,000 per year, for example.

The damage done to their cause if they were discovered in the commission of a serious crime on UK soil, as opposed to being able to remain in the role of shadowy influences in background during the period immediately following the government's realisation that the supernatural is real, would be such that they can hardly afford to take any such risks. Of course, it is precisely for that reason that many among the Shadow Court believe that the active operations mounted by the Rangers cannot be justified, even if they may be saving a few lives per year.

If a firefight has alerted neighbours and the police is on the way, policing brass may not be practical. Not to mention that when you're in a thick forest or loney moor, running after (or away from) something terrible while firing furiously, it's very implausible that you'd find all the brass even if you had time to police the scene without any authorities arriving. As for removing the bullets, that will be a luxury they can rarely afford.

I think they ought to be less tracable than any rifled firearm, at least.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Well, Sam's told you what he thinks and why. I consider hima very wired in source.

It's been a couple years since I've heard from Lisa Steele (author of GurpsCops/Mysteries/etc) but i recall she thought "fingerprints" of expended cases was dubious also. Of course, she wasn't completely satisfied with comparison of fired bullets either.

I know some makes of guns will distinctively mark expended cases. The HK G3 series for example but I woukld be dubious of i.d-ing individual guns.

A thought about no trace weapons would be the so-called "Street Sweeper" family of South African shotguns. No rifling and no expended cases while still providing 12 ready shots.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Brass catchers exist I thought and could be a good idea. Are they in TS?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Indeed. I recall much the same things. It has, however, been almost five years since the UK Ballistics database was due to be activated and I have heard little of it since. As I said, I don't know if all weapons entered onto Firearm Licences are fired and the signatures stored or if the database is only useful for matching evidence to weapons previously used in the commission of crimes.

Of course, even if the odds of a successful match are small, they will add up over the course of multiple operations. Best to avoid it as much as possible.

What about the G36 series? Could you see that the .223 Rem brass and/or bullets came from a HK weapon if they were recovered from the scene?

I should think that ordinary pump-action shotguns with an extended magazine would be quite sufficient. Much easier to get their hands on them, too.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

It doesn't actually take any sort of case matching to figure out that a series of firefights involving fully automatic weapons (probably with no bodies and some inexplicable chemical residue left behind) might possibly be related. Also, if they find you carrying a fully automatic rifle around they don't really need to do any case matching to arrest you.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

They could work, but with one thing or another, I'm sure there would be situations where there wasn't time to deploy one or some of the brass got lost while struggling with a slavering troll-like dark fey or a walking corpse animated by a fell spirit.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Sadly true, but on the bright side, hardly the only inexplicable mystery that the police are faced with over the last few years in the setting. And as long as there isn't any evidence to link the firefights to a member of the conspiracy, it's an acceptable risk. Well, acceptable to that part of the conspiracy who feel that risking the future of Great Britain and the existence of the monarchy in order to save a few dozen ordinary citizens per year, that is.

Some of the senior military men and the intelligence people are of the opinion that compromising the people making up the Shadow Court by associating with what are, after all, serious criminal offences, will end up undermining their ability to help the government adjust to the new world. Which in the end will cause more death and harm. But they've relunctantly kept their peace, seeing that breaking completely with the group and going to the authorities would trigger the very situation that they are anxious to avoid.

Indeed not. Thus the importance of weapons being at least somewhat concealable, preferably easy to break down for transport and hard to trace if they are seized. Rather lose a few operatives than compromise the whole thing.

As yet, they've been lucky in avoiding arrest. Of course, for the most part, they don't carry longarms on the streets. They stay in hidden compartments in ordinary looking cars, until they are absolutely necessary. It doesn't hurt that there are some very accomplished seers, shamans and magicians among the senior people. Even when no field magician is with them, friendly or bound spirits often follow them on missions, warning them about unforseen events and even sometimes misdirecting the authorities or dulling the senses of potential witnesses.

But magic is subtle and usually fairly low-powered, at least the kind the field agents can access. Much easier to prevent people from noticing a small bulge under a rain coat than a huge rifle in your hands.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

A more direct answer to your question since I may have misunderstood your intent, other than a few military rifles like the Enfield IWS and variants and some very high end sporting guns, the UK really doesn't make firearms anymore.

The civilian market is very small both from culture and severe gun laws and military orders also are small. The UK military in fact is so poorly supplied that all of NATO calls them the borrowers

http://jamescleverly.blogspot.com/20...borrowers.html

Pretty much everything other than those would be an import or old.

That being said, the need for secrecy aside covering up the import of a few shipments of small arms and ammo seems fairly trivial for someone with the resources of the monarchy.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I recall that in the 80's at least shotguns were essentially unregulated at least compared to other weapons. I knew of several FoF's and a couple of companies that converted Bren guns to .410 gauge and used them quite openly. An actual friend had a .410 gauge BAR.

So it might be worth investigate shot gun caliber weapons. You can still fire slugs and substantial quantities of ammo are going to be much less noticed.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Cool!

The Rangers are going to need at least two man-portable weapons with real firepower, but still small enough to smuggle inside normal vehicles or even hide among sufficiently large tools when in disguise. I had been thinking about Bren guns, illegally cut-down and modified of course.

I think that common brands of hunting shotguns that the Ranger armourers then absolutely butcher to make them compact and concealable would be a somewhat popular choice for taking on murderous human magicians who might command some supernatural creatures. Lot of firepower in a small package, no possibility of forensically tracing the projectiles left at scenes, fairly large shells to police after a firefight and if anyone is arrested with one they could have gotten it off a metal shop chav who is good with his hands.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Making a suppressed machine carbine is trivial for a good armorer with modern tools if he can get ammo and a recipe . They do it all the time in Pakistan and the Philippines .

Just give you hunter guys some homemade guns with brass catchers and burn bags with thermite or whatever if the guns are used for the mission and viola, no forensic trace and a lot less noise

Short shotguns work fine too and give a lock stock two smoking barrels flavor.

Those sawed off double guns are actually a better choice than the harder to get pumps (which only hold one more round in a short configuration anyway) since they can't be short stroked and can be run just as fast or faster with practice.

Also shotguns can be suppressed pretty easily if needed and such devices can even be permitted in the UK .

A suppressed shotgun with subsonic shells is pretty effective a close range and an over/under double with extractors instead of ejectors could lay down some adequate firepower, muffled so as to not sound like a gun and not leaving shells behind.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The first few weapons would have been acquired in 1991-1992. The acquisition of weaponry would have been stepped up in 1995-1996.

So far, these weapons would have been acquired in order to arm a secret backup team of supernatural-savvy royal bodyguards, to provide the occasional sidearm for investigators of the supernatural when dealing with dangerous people and in order for a close-knit group of former military men and police to use for the development of theoretical tactics and procedures when confronting the paranormal. The operational deployment of conspiracy members as a paramilitary supernatural police force had not yet been approved (nor indeed were there many who'd have contemplated such a thing).

Such contemplation started in 1998, but only among a tiny minority of those in the know. It acquired a slightly greater following in the years 1999-2000, as more and more supernatural crimes came to the attention of the group. By June 2001, previous coyness about arming the people responsible for the supernatural security of the Queen disappeared overnight and in the months following, some serious weaponry would have been acquired for that role. Much of that could have been done through influencing the London Met to adopt heavier weaponry, of course, which was greatly eased by the new climate in law enforcement post-9/11 later in the year.

By 2005, the conspiracy would have possessed a considerable stockpile of weapons, but they would have been neither very standardised nor intended for anything but a reserve role if all else failed.* Maybe half-a-dozen weapons of each type that had been developed as the Shadow Court's theoretical new 'anti-supernatural weapons', for eventual issue to police and military units after the reveal wold have been used by the small informal group of supernatural infantry and police tactics planning committee established by HRH Duke of Edinburgh. But only for training and experimentation.

It was that year, however, that the Queen ordered her group of training officers to take an active role against the supernatural. This changed the character of the conspiracy and was far from popular in many quarters, though some among the Rangers were ecstatic.

Only at that time would they have started to acquire weapons consciously for the purpose of clandestine or covert direct action against the supernatural. Obviously, many weapons acquired for experimentation or training purposes would have fitted that role, but they were neither standardised nor numerous. If possible, however, the people intended to protect the Queen from threats that ordinary police or soldiers wouldn't have been able to handle would have possessed some military weaponry, which would then have been acquired from 1992-2002, with the greater numbers likely to come at the end of that period.

So, overall, I'm not only looking for weapons made in the UK today, but also ten or twenty years ago. Or weapons which could have existed in stockpiles in the country then. That very much makes the SLR and the Browning Hi-Power viable choices, as stockpiles of SLRs would have been decomissioned gradually over the period I'm considering and the Browning Hi-Powers used by some police units as well as special military units were replaced by Glocks and SIGs in the 90s to 00s. Having a member of the conspiracy involved with someone licensed to run a deactivated weapons parts shop could allow them access to weapons fairly easily reactivated in their extensive workshop, too.

For brand-new weapons acquired through grey market channels, there are still some choices in the period. Some HK weapons have been made under licence in the UK, after all, and there are smaller factories making modified versions of military-grade weapons.

BAE owned Royal Ordnance and either Royal Ordnance or BAE bought HK at some point in the 90s and owned it until 2002. Confusing, but it boiled down to HK being at least partly British-owned for a short while. There is/was a factory in Britain that used to, at least, make some licenced HK weapons, inc., perhaps, some MP5-brands. I just don't know which models, how much and which precise years it operated. For that matter, HK still has a fairly large warehouse and office in Nottingham. Not sure about the status of any production capability in the UK, but BAE has its smallarms facilities in Nottingham as well.

Evidently protesters in the UK feel that it is plausible that HK might have used its United Kingdom offices (and factory) to make and sell weapons to regimes that the German government wouldn't allow them to ship to. They protested about it and everything.** So I wonder what models and variants of HK weapons were made in the UK or at the very least transhipped there.

Parker Hale and FR Ordnance International/Imperial Defence Services Ltd. have both built specialised firearms for tactical uses at some point in the past. Was such work going on around 2000? Are there any other such UK-based operations?

These are the kinds of questions I'm wondering about.

*While intervening in a paranormal attack against the Queen or other members of the Royal Family would undoubtedly reveal the the existence of a secret group of bodyguards (as well as rendering them liable for prosecution for a range of offences), everyone involved accepts that this would be a lesser evil than allowing Buckingham Palce or Windsor to suffer an equivalent of the Nepal Royal Massacre.
**I'm not saying that the accusations of the protestors were necessarily accurate (some are obviously stupid). I am saying that unless HK actually had some kind of a factory with the capability to make smallarms in the UK at some point, it would have been fairly easy to demolish any such claims publicly and leave the leaders of the protestors with a considerable amount of egg on their face.

Well, those resources really only boil down to social influence. The Queen might indeed know people who know people in the intelligence and military procurement business. These people could plausibly use social influence in order to convince British industrialists to manipulate end-user certificates, in order (or so they believe) to enable Whitehall to carry out one of its pieces of underhanded diplomacy, i.e. shipping armaments to somewhere the official policy is a ban on arms sales, but the Foreign Office wants to keep a friendly relationship with a bulwark of British interests while assuring Europe and/or the US that they are absolutely onboard with an embargo. Apart from the weapons never leaving Britain and the real shadowy influence behind the deal being royal instead of senior figures at Whitehall or the Circus; nothing much out of the ordinary.

By contrast, people asked to look the other way while unsavoury looking characters smuggle crates of stuff into Britain is much more likely to go awry. People who might not blink at 'technically' breaking the law in order to (they believe) supply a Sandhurst-educated tyrant with more weaponry for 'suppression of domestic disorder', despite an inconvenient arms embargo against him, might not be quite so blasé about Turkish or Albanian gangsters smuggling guns into the UK, for unknown purposes.

The Foreign Service and the intelligence services are used to subordinating legalities to diplomatic and strategic concerns when it comes to business outside the UK. That doesn't mean that they'd see it quite the same way if they thought they were being asked to be complicit in a terrorist attack on UK soil. It's extremely important to avoid any suggestion that you need the weapons at home, instead pretending only that you are going to ship them to a different foreign buyer than is listed on the end-user certificate. That way, people can more effectively wash their hands of the whole business.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

When I'm hunting monsters, I always like a little edge -- a bigger hole, a few more bullets thrown, and as that guy on Deadliest Warrior always says, options.

I also like being able to use a buddy's mags if I run out, get spare parts and buy ammo nice and easy. Accordingly, I offer the following, perhaps dilatory, views related to the subject:


Pistol choices:

Off-the-shelf option

-Glock 23 (.40 S&W)
+
-Glock 18 Auto 9mmP

Custom option

-Rebuild Glock 18s in .40 S&W with CZ75Auto spare-mag-foregrip system


Main longarm choices

Don't bother with the lighter weapons like SMGs, PDWs and carbines. I doubt there's a monster hunter alive who misses two pounds of carrying capacity instead of more damage when it's monster-killin' time! Also, the whole superstructure of your inventory can be simplified by use of flexible platforms.

Off the shelf options:

-Steyr AUG (Barrel convertibility makes this an attractive weapon system for the monster hunter who needs flexibility, including service as a small caliber LMG.)

-Mk 48 LMG, for heavier duty

Custom Options:

-Refurbish M14s to your spec, similar perhaps to the Mk 14 EBR or even consider a bullpup configuration

-Refurbish M14A1s to your spec for service as LMGs.


Shotgun choices

Off the shelf

Consider giving everyone the option of exotic shotgun ammo
with a lightweight under-barrel shotgun system, ideally capable of handling both 2.75 and 3" shells.

Custom option

In addition to underbarrel STGs as standard equipment, for dedicated shotgunners, cut down a few old pump-action 10Gs, and slap a few tactical mods on them.


This inventory should cover your real needs nicely while limiting your basic ammo requirements to 5 types.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

While I'd not consider it 'trivial'*, I agree that building the guns from scratch can be done.

The concern is to ensure that the guns are, in GURPS terms, at least Malf. Crit and preferably Malf. Very Reliable. That you can get in factory-made TL8 weapons, but it might be more difficult to do at home.

Granted, the conspiracy originally intended their machine shop to build prototypes of modern weapons modified for monster hunting. This was in order to be able to suggest already existing designs for adoptation once the government discovers the supernatural and starts to make the necessary adjustments to law enforcement and military servicse.

As a result, they would have an armoury workshop ideal for building one-of-a-kind prototypes of high-quality. After the Rangers went operational, some of the changes made included buying new machines for the armoury to be able to handle the maintainence, re-barrelling and ammunition reloading for a much higher number of weapons and a greatly increased pace of training. Even with all that nice gear and two highly qualified gunsmiths (who can train assistants), though, I don't see it being all that practical to build everything they need themselves.

Suppressed carbines, though, may be a speciality item that they are best off doing completely in-house, only buying what components are excluded from the scope of UK firearms legislation and can be explained with a cover story like 'Paintball League' (primarily furniture like stocks; but also some optics).

I thought they might perhaps like to refurbish a stock of decommissioned Sterling SMGs, making high-quality suppressors for them and rails to mount optics and lights. Seems like it would do the job just fine.

*Even if not formally educated as machinists or gunsmiths, many of the unlicenced gunsmiths in tribal areas are highly skilled at what they do. As someone who can't even sew buttons, connect up a washing machine or draw a stick-figure without being mocked for having ten thumbs on two left hands, I'd never call the skill set of a competent machnist, mechanic or gunsmith 'trivial', even if the methods and tools used are low-tech.

For a lot of missions, they'll only draw sidearms to wear for self-protection. If they really have to shoot, they'll prefer using a disposable handgun or shotgun, something obtained through one of the UK gun collection drives (and one of their people with the police) and sanitised in the armoury.

While the military-grade weapons are the most interesting*, they are definitely something that they obtain, but hope they never have to use for real. On the few occasions they have been forced to deploy them by adverse circumstances, it has most often been in rural areas, and the response time of the police thus slower than if they used them in central London.

*Not to mention one of the weakest links in their secrecy, hence a potential sources of adventuring tension both for games where the PCs are Queen's Paranormal Rangers (or other members of the Shadow Court) and for games set in the same setting, but featuring this conspiracy as a potential rival, foe or ally.

I love the idea of shotguns as common 'covert'-ish weapons with the firepower to take down supernatural foes.

I'd want at least two grades. One supershort whippet pistol and one with a barrel length between 14"-20", a pistol grip and a folding or retractable stock.

I agree that doubles (in 12G, 20G or .410 depending on the size of the wielder) are probably their best candidates for modication into the smallest shotgun pistols, but I think pump action could work for Bulk -5* combat shotguns. Could buy them legally as hunting weapons and then heavily modify them.

UK law restricts shotgun (and other weapons, I think too) magazine capacity to a grand total of 2 rounds. One extra in the chamber if the design allows. Judging by how similar Icelandic laws are applied, though, I think that the knick-nacks used to limit magazine size are actually rather easy to remove. Certainly they would be so for a qualified armourer in a well-stocked workshop.

I don't know about the availability of the various models of shotguns in the UK, though. Seems like weapons designed with larger magazine sizes would be viewed with suspicion, since that feature would not be functional if you meant to obey the law and only mattered if you were planning to remove the limiter.

I'm wondering if they could obtain Benelli semi-autos in any numbers. Look like they'd be good candidates for modification, of which not much is needed. The Super 90 would be ideal, because you can switch between pump (exotic ammo) and semi-auto (everything else) action. I have no idea whether you can just buy a UK-legal Benelli Super 90 in a hunting store there, though. If you can, I don't know if the magazine is completely ruined or just fitted with a gizmo that's easy to remove to make the gun fully functional again. Also, I don't know how much you can cut off the barrel of a hunting model Benelli without damaging the action, magazine or something else vital.

Gun-savvy forumites can suggest other specific models of pump-action or semi-auto shotguns which especially lend themselves to being cut-down into riot guns with folding stocks. I'd want guns which don't have vital features near the end of the barrel, obviously, and they'd have to be able to fit an extended magazine with at least 6 shells, preferably more.

That, of course, kind of limits us to a barrel length equal to the extended magazine, but I suppose that could vary between shotgun brands. The Remington 870 can easily fit 7 shells in the magazine even with a riot length barrel. Any brand that allows the same would be fine.

Hell, a Remington can be cut down to a 14" barrel and still retain a magazine for 4 shells and one in the chamber. That could be a very handy little weapon. Is this possible for any other shotguns? Is the Remington magazine particularly compact or sited further to the rear than with other brands?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

While it doesn't give you standardized weapons many of the people might have something that was brought back from a war as a trophy by a recent ancestor.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Indeed.

Those who have paranormal gifts of their own might do well do use a weapon with a history and a metaphysical connection to their family. Somehow, such things seem to partially make up for the interference technological artifacts cause in magical energies. Better yet if the weapons can be refurbished and maintained with old school tools only, taking care to retain a classic appearance.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I was thinking the same thing! It's crazy what they can make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FinRqCocwGE#t=4m0s

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I don't know how much of the thread you read, let alone the two other threads related to the setting, the conspiracy of people in the know and the fighting styles of this group of monster hunters.

In any event, the short version is that while the group has a paramilitary police mission, they are effectively a criminal conspiracy, consisting of both private citizens and current or former members of the armed services and the SO14 branch (Royalty Proection) of Protection Command of the London Metropolitan Police Service.

They may have astonishing social connections for a criminal conspiracy, seeing as they originate from a close circle of friends and acquintances around HM Queen Elizabeth II, but they don't actually have any legal authority to carry or own weapons, let alone use them to hunt monsters. In fact, most people in the world, as well as the elected government, don't believe in monsters or magic.

The primary purpose of the conspiracy is to prepare the United Kingdom of Great Britain and to a lesser extent the Commonwealth for the new world that they are moving toward. At some point*, the supernatural will become public. At that point, the police, intelligence, security and armed services will have to make a lot of changes quickly, to make up for lost time. What insiders sometimes wryly refer to as the 'Shadow Court' (or the Dee Club, Bacon Appreciation Society or other tongue-in-cheek names) aims to have the knowledge, expertise and connections to help them do so.

To that end, they've been investigating the occult; to learn how to minimise the harm from dangerous aspects as well as research beneficial applications. They've developed magical theory by building on the work of scholars in previous eras, before the last waning of the influence of the paranormal. And they've closely scrutined any strange reports of criminal activity with apparent supernatural connections, learning what threats to expect and doing theoretical studies on how to counter them.

Some members of the conspiracy have been senior law enforcement officers, administrators of security or intelligence services or military staff officers. These people have done planning work on necessary organisational and doctrinal changes within their respective fields, developing plans which could be implemented as soon as the government comes to accept the supernatural.

Some military and police members even developed methods of arrest and neutralisation of supernatural threats, which could be taught to members of special units within the armed services and police once the problem is publicly acknowledged.

The conspiracy was never intended to be a secret police or paramilitary force. That came across almost by accident, as various senior people in it found it difficult to accept having prior knowledge about dangers to British subjects, dangers which the police was not prepared to handle effectively, and do nothing. So in 2005, the small group of conspiracy members who had been working on experimental fighting styles and weaponry went out as vigilantes and stopped a monster from slaughtering dozens of people.

This was done with the approval of HM Queen Elizabeth II, but not everyone within the conspiracy agreed. To some, breaking the law this flagrantly is too risky and likely to destroy their chances of influencing the transition once the government becomes aware of the threat. That, in turn, will eventually mean that more people die and Britain is less ready to face the future.

All of which means that weaponry is not chosen merely for effectiveness on the battlefield, but must carefully balance firepower with factors such as unobtrusiveness and concealability, ease of availability through covert channels and the amount and distinguishability of any forensic evidence left.

*Discreet attempts to convince people in authority have thus far not yielded encouraging results. About the best that can be said about them is that that the members of the conspiracy who approached acquintances at Whitehall have at least not been mocked in the media.

Pistols aren't available off-the-shelf in the UK. Even police officers can only draw them in special circumstances and only if they have been trained as an Authorised Firearms Officer, which I believe describes less than 20% of the personnel of UK police forces.

In this thread, I've been exploring which models of pistol would be available on the UK grey market* or as surplus which contacts or conspiracy members within the police or armed services could perhaps disappear.

No weapons chambered in .40 S&W are at all likely; as that's not a caliber much used in the UK. For full-size pistols I'm leaning toward the Browning Hi-Power, as that was in use by special units (such as the SEG and CO19/SO19/SCO19) within the London Met before being replaced by the Glock 17 in the years between 1992 and 2005. It was also the issue pistol for officers and specialists in the UK armed services, all the way up to 2013. It was replaced in special operations circles earlier, though, with the SAS/SBS/Royal Marine Commandos/etc. obtaining SIGs through an UOR deal. That would mean that with the right contacts at the right time (both fairly plausible), the conspiracy could obtain both surplus military and police Brownings.

For smaller weapons, I think they'll have an unholy mess. Automatics like the Webley & Scott MP, Beretta Mod 1951, Walther PP and maybe PPK (all in .32 ACP); courtesy of the London Met Protection Command. Then revolvers; like S&W Model 10s and 36s and a bunch of old Webley and Enfield revolvers 'Fitzed' to make them concealable. Some in .380/200, some in .38 Spl and some in .455 Webley. Though having two good armourers and a well-stocked machine shop means that at least they'll all be well maintained and if necessary, can be refurbished up real nice.

*That is, from legitimate armament companies, with end-user certificates and everything. Only that the end-user certificates don't match where the weapons eventually end up.

While the monster hunters might not care about the weight, they (or at least the people behind them who arrange for the weapons) should care very much about the possibility of concealing the weapons in their vehicles; or being able to carry them under parkas or other form-hiding clothing; or concealed in briefcases, toolboxes, sports bags and other convenient containers compatible with disguises. If the police see them with weapons, they'll be arrested and the conspiracy might be blown.

Hence, one of the most important factors* about picking weapons is maximising their firepower while minimising their footprint; both in terms of bulk, noise and the forensic evidence they leave behind.

*Aside from the possibility of obtaining them secretly using the methods discussed in this thread.

Ideally, yes. But in practice, secrecy in obtaining the weapons and ammunition, as well as a low operational footprint*, far outweighs considerations of economy when it comes to picking the weapons. On the scale of things, weapons are a fairly small part of the total budget and spending an extra 20%, 50% or even 100% on them for extra secrecy is fine. In any event, buying spare parts won't be easy, as any part that is necessary for the operation of the weapon is classified as a 'Firearm' under UK law and thus restricted quite harshly, not to mention that anomalous purchases of such items by any individual or shop might trigger official attention. So I think that they'll use CNC and barrel-making machines to make their own spare parts as much as possible. That's probably going to be more expensive than buying them in bulk, but there's no help for it.

Ammo is a more relevant cost; especially as large capacities will tend to be noticed, but I've got thoughts about using reloading machines on site to minimise the need to buy it in bulk. In any case, exotic ammunition will have to be made on site. For anything that needs to be bought, the cover story used for the relevant licences will influence what chamberings are available. Anything not used much or at all in the UK will be avoided unless there is no other option; as it would be a red-flag for forensics as well as potentially raising eyebrows when you bought it.

*Low Bulk, preferably easy to disassemble for transport, easily supressed, easy to police brass, not an exotic caliber or otherwise noticable in what it leaves behind in forensic evidence.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Clearly you have some well developed ideas of what they might have, whereas I am remarking on a question of what they should obtain.

If .40 S&W is impractical, then I recommend making use of specialized ammo to help with the punching power of 9mm. I still recommend a pistol with selective fire capability to cover the whole territory of utility up to my recommended personal long-arms. Pistol configurations are also more discreet than SMGs or PDWs.

It is very wise of you to have armoury capabilities in-house, IMHO. If I were running the outfit, I would look at making significant use of it. I'd also look at taking in house all production for your special ammo needs.

Regarding the longarms, as I recommended, the use of shortened, folding, and bullpup configurations will aid in achieving your 'small footprint' objectives while also keeping punching power high and ammo complexity to a minimum (i.e. two very common NATO cartridges).

Taking all this into account, the organization could move to a very streamlined 5-platform (Glock 18, Steyr Aug in personal or LMG roles, a custom battle rifle, and the two shotguns), 5 ammo (three NATO standard -- 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and shotgun loads 12G, and 10G), with the option to go down to 4 by dropping the big shotgun.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I didn't have much of an idea when I started this thread; but it has proved very useful in firming up the concept. Even when I don't use the suggestions received from posters in their original form, they often encourage me to consider things from a different angle or to research a question I hadn't previously considered.

I'm still very interested in input on some questions about what modern weapons would be available to them on the grey market, i.e. through the manipulation of end-user certificates with the help of contacts within UK govermnent (and intelligence), British industry and foreign monarchies with close relationships with the UK. In order for a weapon to be available in that way, it has to be made in the UK or at least assembled there for transshipment elsewhere.

For instance, which models of HK firearms were/are made under licence in the UK? To what extent were smallarms from H&K built or assembled in the UK (for instance in the Nottingham facility) in the 90s (until 2002) while BAE owned Heckler & Koch? Since the late 80s, have any UK manufacturers made original or modified smallarms for special operations; other than FR Ordnance? What models has Parker Hale modified? And so on.

I also welcome more general speculation, even in the absence of such specialised knowledge*, as it will at the very least serve as a spur to further resarch and thought and could give rise to cool new ideas.

*Which would be the province of the HANSes, Roger Burton-Wests and Sam Cades of the world.

Against supernaturals, it may be necessary to load some truly bizarre substances. Against anything that will leave a human body, it's best if the bullets are as mundane as possible and not tracable to anyone. That probably means reloaded brass with common target, police or military projectiles. Semi-wadcutters, steel or copper-plated, military FMJ and maybe some JHP from police armouries.

Best of all would be common rounds in the same chamberings as those of the old revolvers, re-activated surplus weapons and low-caliber cheap and nasty semi-automatics that are the only guns even relatively common among criminal gangs in the UK.

It's possible to modify the Browning Hi-Power for full-auto functioning. I don't know if there are any pitfalls to this and if it can be made as reliable as a factory-made Beretta 93R, Glock 18 or similar weapons.

I also wonder about a small folding foregrip and how much it would interfere with CCW. It would make the weapon much more controllable, to be sure. Maybe you could carry it seperately, snap it on a rail-mount before action?

Anything like iron, silver, gold or hawthorne baton ammunition obviously needs to be made specially by them. They'll reload all they can, too.

True, but while I agree with the basic concept of shortened carbines with folding stocks in 5.56mm, I think we have to look at what models would be available to them through their British contacts.

They can do a lot of gunsmithing work themselves; as long as they obtain weapons to do it on. So what 5.56mm weapons are they most likely to be able to obtain through British industrialists or British supply officers, around 2001-2002 and again in 2005-2006?

Granted, the L85A1 (aka SA80) would be easily* available to them, but there's a reason the British Army had it essentially rebuilt. I'd want to avoid it if at all possible. The L85A2 would be different, but I just don't know if all of the modifications were done in Germany or if any UK factories owned by BAE or HK (then BAE-owned) did work on them. If they did, then that would be a decent choice.

*There's still something like 40,000 lying unused in armouries.

We also have to provide a Bulk -1 concealable carry option for academics, journalists and other field researchers with limited knowledge of firearms, who might nonetheless find themselves in a situation where it was better to have one. And sanitised drop-guns for what amount to murders, maybe a .22 LR (most common anywhere, hence least cause for suspicion).

I don't find any reasonable options in 9mm which would be available to the group. British police and armed services have fielded some concealable handguns, which by now might be available for discreet acquisition, but they've not been chambered in 9mm. The best possibilities have been chambered for .32 ACP for most of the semi-automatic options and in .380/200 for most of the revolver ones. .38 Spl revolvers exist, but were never issued in large numbers to any British organisation. There's also .455 Webley, for what it's worth.

And handgun production in the UK is even less promising. Basically, nothing much since WWII.

Does anyone know what were the most common handguns in the UK before the strict legislation hit? Pre-60s stuff, one would think. Some .22 LRs and a lot of revolvers. But what makers? What brands?

As regards your recommended longarms, I think it would be much harder to get M14s in Britain than it would be to get G3s* and L1A1 SLRs (FN FAL). I agree with the proposed modications, but you'd most probably start with either of those.

The Steyr AUG would probably be really hard to get. Is it really worth it to risk exposure by smuggling them into the UK, even if you could do the end-user certificates shuffle with them? Can't you get much the same flexibility by having in stock a seperate machine carbine in 9mm, short-barreled 5.56mm carbine and an EBR-ised 7.62mm rifle? True, you're left without an LMG, but the reality is that weapons that aren't purpose-built to be machine guns from ground-up tend to underperform in the field. They are more attractive on the printed page than anywhere else.

Most of the assault rifles that can be converted into LMGs have proved so disappointing in the latter role that the services which adopted them have been forced to add a dedicated SAW/LMG to their arsenal as well.

It might be worthwhile for the Rangers to construct their own shortened, folding-stock LMG from a surplus Bren or any other machine gun they can get their hands on. For times when things are so desperate that the risk of exposure is outweighed by the need to neutralise a threat that just doesn't respond to concealable weapons.

*Apparently made under licence there way back when, at least in limited numbers. Also adopted in limited numbers for special units.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

I believe they made G36s there for export, and maybe other H&K models.
Accuracy International produces most of its sniper rifles in the UK, although they aren't really what you are after.
The UK stock of Browning Hi-Powers predates standard accessory rails. It might be easier to design a direct attachment for a foregrip than to do it in two stages via an add-on rail.
I believe they were mostly modified in the Nottingham factory. This is from memory of contemporary news reports, which in the UK press are rather better on industry and finance than technical details of guns.
This might have some uses for the QPR. The guns are definitely TL6, but lasted well, and exotic hand-loads are easier to get to work well in a revolver than a semi-auto. It also has usefully more stopping power then .380/200, under GURPS. And it reloads quickly with a speed-loader. But it's bulky. The G:WWII campaign I play in kept using them until we could get Hi-Powers.
Yes, and very assorted. Lots of Webley revolvers that were similar to service models, and cheaper knock-offs of them. Quite a few souvenir Lugers. All sorts of imports. Almost anything could turn up in a handgun amnesty, but much of it was cheap and nasty. During WWII, there was an appeal for handguns for war service, for supplying to resistance movements, which decreased the amount of good stuff in private hands by a hundred thousand or more.
A lot of Brens were converted to 7.62 NATO and stayed in British Army service until the 1990s - Desert Storm was their last war.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

The Raffica uses a short flip-down foregrip that appears to be affixed.

The CZ 75 Auto uses a slot to attach a spare mag in front of the trigger guard to serve as a foregrip. When removed that system is not particularly noticeable.


Actually, the Glock 17 is issued by UK police.

Also this.


...Well, other than the UK wrinkle, I'd just point out there are (a) a lot of M14s floating around, and (b) it's a sweet weapon with (c) existing modified versions to base your builds on.

Dunno much about the process side, but if it helps, versions of the Steyr AUG are the main weapons of the Australian forces.

Perhaps so, but does your organization have that luxury?


Edit P.S.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...United_Kingdom

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Ok. Do you know if it was G36E(/V), G36KE(/V) or G36C?

For what it's worth, almost all the weapons used by UK police services are G36K or G36C, usually (but not always) in SF, or semi-automatic only configuration.

At some point, MP5s were made under licence in the UK, according to HT and other sources. I haven't had any luck in discovering what models, though. Or by whom, for that matter, though I would guess at some connection with Royal Ordnance/BAE, probably through RSAF.

I know that the RSAF plant in Enfield made HK53A3s under licence, which could be interesting. When they closed the site in 1988 (moving production to Royal Ordnance plants, inc. Nottingham), it's not entirely impossible that they were left with some unsold stock that they'd be glad to get rid of in a 'legal' transaction with Sultan Qaboos or some of his fellow Gulf monarchs.

Oh, I know it doesn't have any accessory rails as is. I was thinking that if you were extensively modifying a Browning, complete with CNC-ing new components as needed and thus basically building a automatic pistol based on the L9A1, it could make sense to include accessory rails.

I'm picturing a slide-on attachment which combines a foregrip, tactical light and targeting laser. People with practical experience can tell me why that's a bad idea. I mean, I've seen such things, but it might be something which is only bought for TactiCool cred and works terribly in the real world.

Given that one of the problems with automatic pistols is that they are too light to be controllable, I thought it might be cool to add some weight to the foreend along with the grip. Might be easier to hide a normal size Browning and a foregrip/light in two pieces like that than an SMG of similar weight and with the same purpose.

That might give them access to a choice of G36-based carbines, the HK53A3 or L85A2. The G36s would be the hardest to get, I'd think, seeing as they are in current use with police special teams and we don't know how much of them was built in the UK. And we still haven't narrowed down which model and I have no idea how easy it would be to modify the G36VSF into a G36K or G36C.

Obviously, a bullpup like the L85 can't use traditional folding or retractable stocks. Is there anything that could be done with the stock to make it easier to conceal during transport? Could one, with the resources discussed earlier in this thread (couple of CNC machines, a full gunsmithing workshop, two experienced armourers) design a stock that was at least partially retractable or could fold the rearward portion to the side? Sam? HANS? Anyone?

If getting them and modifying proves to be of roughly equivalent difficulty; which option sounds best out of these? HK53A3, G36C or G36K unmodified; or an entry version of the SA80 made with an L86A1 modified into a short carbine, like the L22A1 (ideally with some way to minimise the stock during transport)?

To some extent, the Bulk issue could be reduced with 'Fitzing', though I don't know whether there are some special pitfalls to consider when modifying Webleys in that way.

I was thinking that refurbished and/or painstakingly recreated classic Webleys and Enfields; all the way from the police models like the Webley RIC or M.P. Model, through the Colonial Service Webley-Green, Webley-Wilkingson and the Boer War model up to WWII vintage ones, could have been popular with the conspiracy during the pre-Ranger era.

They had an armoury back then, though not with the capability to produce on the same scale as when the Rangers became operational (which was added in 2005-2006) and they would have been interested in testing the possibilities in combining weapons and the paranormal. Supernatural-sensitive people and trained ritual magicians probably don't want to carry tools that are too modern and even people who don't use magic of their own might not want to interfere too much with it while researching. And I understand it's much easier to modify a revolver for concealed carry than it is to do the same to a semi-auto.

A Webley RIC or M.P. Model made from good steel could be a very decent sidearm for CCW. Do the designs have any flaws that it would be necessary to fix before issuing them? If so, would such fixes change the look of the gun greatly or be difficult to do?

I wonder what would be the best modern load for it? If you buy the brass somewhere and load your own, what would be the optimal self-defence round that fit the old design and what kind of stats would you get? If you wanted people with a single familiarisation course to be able to use it for short-range self-defence, that is?

A Boer-War vintage Webley Mk IV, which had perhaps had most of the wear-parts changed many times but was still metaphysically 'my grandfather's gun', might be a decent middle-ground between avoiding high-tech (to allow magic use) and still carrying a gun with some power. As long as you did it with hand tools and took care to have the end product look classic, I think you might get away with strengthening the weapon enough to handle high-power loads. At least 2d pi+, I'd hope. Is a hotter load possible without changing the weapon from its original appearance or making it unreliable in the field? Sam Cade? HANS? RogerBW? Anyone?

Apart from the .22 LR; what calibers do you reckon are the most common in your few street murders which involve firearms? I know that these are less than 20 a year* and thus not exactly a fit sample for a proper statistical analysis; but still, what kind of bullet would predispose investigators to think "druggies with an old street gun" and not wonder about a new gang with more powerful and modern weaponry?

*Meaning that in the UK, 2-3% of murders, at most, involve firearms.

RSAF at Enfield and something called Manroy Engineering appear to have made a bunch of FN MAG GPMGs under licence.

Given a choice between a Bren chambered in 7.62x51mm and a FN MAG in the same caliber, which would posters choose as the basis for a cut-down 'Para' machine gun, with short barrel and folding stock?

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Indeed. I'd love for them to design something like that for the Browning they'd modify for full-auto functionality. I don't know if it would be practical, however. A lot of modifications that work for one weapon prove a lot harder to do for another. That's why I ask experts before featuring something in a game.

If I were choosing weapons merely based on how much I like them personally, they'd be armed exclusively with CZ pistols, mind you. But I'm basing this on the plausibility of acquiring them with maximum covertness, through contacts I believe they would likely have.

I know that the Glock 17 is currently issued to a lot of UK police. The Glock 17, however, is not a concealable handgun, it is a full-size service weapon. When I say 'concealable', I mean something the size of a Glock 26. And those only recently (2010) started to be issued to the Royalty Protection branch of the London Met Protection Command and don't appear to be available to many other UK-based forces.

All in all, it is unlikely that the conspiracy could acquire sufficient numbers using clandestine channels. Those work best when the weapons are manufactured in the UK or are being phased out of service with UK forces, because in both cases, they can be sold out of the country with legal end-user certifcates, but are removed from the crates before the shipment leaves, with the connivance of an insider among the company or service selling the weapons.

Obtaining a couple of decommissioned L4A4 Brens or L7A2/L8A2/L20A2/L37A2/L44A1/L112A1s (FN MAG) marked 'destroyed' and then extensively modifying them for assault duties would probably be significantly easier and more covert than getting a Steyr AUG with all the conversion kits would be. And the end result would actually be useful in case they ever needed to break all secrecy during some terrible incident and lay down heavy fire for an extended period of time.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Sorry, no idea.
The fire selector is apparently well to the rear of the magazine well, so the answer is probably not.
There isn't an extended axis pin or hand-ejection rod to worry about when shortening the barrel.
You don't want the gate-loading or single-action ones: too slow to reload or fire. The break-open, self-ejecting models start with the Webley-Pryse in 1876.
Probably an equivalent of the old MkII unjacketed hollow-point round, marketed as the "manstopper" and definitely excluded for military use by the Hague Convention. That's an HP round in GURPS terms, which gets you to 2d-1pi++
Well, start with a MkIV or later - you don't want the ones that were built for black powder - and look to strengthen the pivot in the hinged frame, and the top stirrup the holds the gun closed when it is fired. Those are the weak points, and are one reason why the S&W was referred to the Enfield/Webley in .380/200 - that has a solid frame that can't come apart on you.
No real idea, other than "obsolete".
Well, the Bren in 5lb lighter in starting weight. Both are gas-operated, which means cutting the barrel back further than the gas port is harder work, but the MAG looks to have the gas port nearer the breech, from looking at photos.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...om-France.html

I'm not HANS but I am friends with Mr Google.

I din't trust the Sun's level of reporting much but a fair bit in the article appeared factually checkable.

So I suspect that it's farily reasonable that what says "cheap criminal" to UK police is "smuggled in from France". In another even vaguer report I did see somethign about a cache of guns smuggled in from Germany.

The general search term....... Guns siezed UK ......turned up many (admttedly sensationalized) mentions of siezed AKs, submachine guns and even an M-16.

Certainly if you can smuggle cocaine and heroin into the UK in myulti-kilo quantities you can get guns in too. Criminal guns could be almost anything.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Some of the article made my head hurt. Especially the bits where people were shocked to see that non-functioning toys were sold 'so openly'. I don't really care about one's view on gun legislation. Anyone who claims that looking like it could be dangerous is grounds for banning a thing might need mental help. That's on par with suggesting that the defendant ought to be found guilty at once because his cranium is clearly that of an unrepentant criminal. Do these people even realise that any teenager with a set of car keys is in possession of a weapon several orders of magnitude more dangerous than a toy which looks sort of like a TL4 weapon?

I was surprised to see that firearm homicides have apparently tripled in the UK between 2009 and now. That almost matches my fictional setting, but I didn't exactly expect to see reality changing to conform to my fiction.

I like the fact that TL4 and TL5 black powder firearms are apparently used in the underworld. Perfect for the Queen's Paranormal Rangers! I thought the police would be flabbergasted to find out that someone used a gun that's been obsolete for two or three centuries in a gangland slaying, but clearly, UK criminals have been thoughtful enough to provide me with reality that's stranger than fiction.

The problem is that the same one or two seizures are reported in many different media, until less than a dozen for a country of sixty million is mistakingly taken as 'typical'. Typical UK criminals, even hardened criminals who might murder someone, have never used a firearm in their life. Don't need one. The number one weapon used against cops in the US are cars, for example. Real life has plenty of things that kill people. Why bother with something that's expensive and hard to get when you can kill people for less using something else?

You can, yes. But while the risk of police attention is fairly unimportant to gangs composed of career criminals, it's deadly for a conspiracy of high-status people whose life would be ruined at the mere whiff of scandal.

Not to mention that the skills and contacts necessary for smuggling aren't acquired overnight. The successful drug smuggling organisations have experienced and knowledgable members somewhere, planning the importation end. And they still accept a certain percentage will fall into police hands. The Shadow Court can't just accept that they'll occasionally have members arrested and a police task forced formed to trace the money trail. They have to do their best to avoid even the apperance of impropriety.*

*Which is why many members hate the very idea of the Rangers, obviously.

Re: Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK
 

Indeed. That's why I was wondering about folding the rear-end of the stock, behind the fire selector. That would certainly not make a difference in terms of the GURPS Bulk, but in real-world terms, it might be slightly easier to transport. Assuming any such thing is practical, of course.

Granted, an SA80 with the barrel shortened to 12"-13" and the magazine removed for transport is pretty compact. Maybe it would be compact enough?

While I agree for combat pistols, I think that a self-defence weapon might actually be fine even if it only allowed 5-6 rounds. The Webley RIC and M.P. models are double-action and while they are solid-frame loading gate weapons, it might not matter that much. After all, it's exceptionally unlikely that any barely-trained civilian is going to be able to reload a revolver while in a life-and-death situation anyway. Either his first couple of shots are on target and save his life or he's buggered anyway.

Given a free choice, I'd give him more rounds, obviously, but high-capacity concealed carry semi-automatics are proving to be hard to obtain, it seems. Given a choice betwen a Bulk -2 full-size pistol with 13+1 rounds and a Bulk -1 one with 6 rounds, I'm not sure that the larger pistol wins out. Not if it means that you can't wear it all day with all kinds of clothing and so are sure to have it on you when you need it, whereas the 'better' pistol might be in your car when you really have need of it.

The original .455 Webley was a black powder round, which means that the cartidge is going to have space for a lot more 'boom' when you load it with smokeless powder (or even highest quality black powder) than the TL5-TL6 originals could handle. If you make the replicas from good steel, I'd think you could shoot what amounted to 'high-power' rounds easily enough. I wonder what gun-savvy forumites think. Any reason why that shouldn't work? What are the practical limits for safe and reliable functioning?

The Bren gun also has huge props for coolness.

"What's that?"

"This is me Bren gun."