Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Let's say you kill a monster worth 4 treasures as a cleric, with help, and hoard being the 2nd card in the discard pile.

Cleric draws the first card in the discard, 2nd card in the discard, draws 3 more face up and daisy chains by using the cleric ability and hoard to get a potential 3x3+1 treasures for the first in discard and getting hoard a bunch of times. What is it that makes this illegal?

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

The order you described is wrong. The Cleric would collect all the Treasures from the combat first. Lets assume he Ressurected the 1st and 2nd (Hoard) and drawed the remaining two from the Treasure deck, face up. He had to discard two cards from his hand in order to do this.
Then there would be the division of Treasure, as per the original agreement with the helper. Only then Hoard would be activated.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Short Answer: Hoard! isn't discarded until after the complete, original Treasure draw occurs (see the quoted FAQ entry below).

Long Answer: While you are correct that Hoard! cannot be chained, you're wrong on when it activates, bonetm. It does activate as soon as it is drawn, absolutely immediately, and anything drawn by it becomes part of the Treasure set before distribution.

The correct timing description is as follows. Let's continue with the example that the monster had 4 Treasures and Hoard! was the second card in the pile.

1. The Cleric needs to draw 4 face-Up Treasures and decides how many Treasures he wishes to Resurrect. Let's say 2.
2. The Cleric discards 2 cards, not to the discard pile, but to a separate pile on the table, for now.
3. The Cleric draws 2 cards from the Treasure discard pile and 2 from the Treasure deck and adds them to the Treasure set for distribution. Hoard! was one of those drawn from the discards.
4. The Cleric must play Hoard! immediately, and adds Hoard! to the cards he discarded in step 2.
5. The Cleric needs to draw 3 face-Up Treasures to resolve Hoard! and decides how many Treasures he wishes to Resurrect. Let's say 1.
6. The Cleric discards 1 more card to the pile of current discards.
7. The Cleric draws 1 card from the Treasure discard pile and 2 cards from the Treasure deck and adds them to the Treasure set.
8. The 6 Treasures in the Treasure set are now distributed as per the agreement made with the Helper.
9. The set of discards, which now totals 4 cards, including Hoard!, is now discarded by the Cleric in the order he chooses (as it is his turn).

Note that Hoard! is not discarded until after all the other effects occur. It is impossible to chain it twice in the same Treasure draw. This is also covered by an FAQ entry:

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Just to be absolutely accurate: all cards drawn as part of a Treasure draw are considered to be drawn simultaneously, even if some are being resurrected and others drawn from the deck. If you're drawing five Treasures and Hoard! is the first card you pull up, draw the other four Treasures and THEN deal with Hoard!'s effects.

And yes, as the FAQ says, you don't discard Hoard! until after you draw the three Treasures it gives you.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Thanks very much for the clarification Andrew. I've edited the step-by-step to reflect what you stated. That does make more sense and resolves a few other issues with timing involved with this card's interaction with others.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

That's one reason I discourage "I'll take the first Treasure drawn" deals where Clerics are involved. If I'm a Cleric and I decide to use Resurrection to take the top discard, is that the first or fourth Treasure I've drawn?

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Thanks all!

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Hoard! is one reason my table tends to agree to combat rewards as a portion of the cards, rather than agreeing to a specific number. The Vaults of Omigoshgolli is another.

"Half the treasure" and "2 treasures" sound like the same when the monster is worth 4 treasures; but if The Vaults of Omigoshgolli gets played after combat, and Hoard! is one of the treasure cards drawn, the monster ended up yielding 10 treasure cards.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Normally at our/my table, people say, when they help and agrees on their reward for helping, would be like "Two treasures, my pick" or if they get outbid on their offer, they could say like "one treasure, your pick" So the one helping gets the last treasure there is left.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

What about this FAQ entry?

Doesn't it state that Hoard! is to be played only after one of the winners chooses it?

As it is written in the Cleric card text, Cleric should first draw a card, then discard a card from the hand. Where is it stated that there should be a "separate pile"?

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

kotya, the specific question about "choosing" Hoard! is when you're using the Bardic Luck ability -- in that case, it's possible that Hoard! would never technically be drawn as Treasure, going straight from the deck to the discard pile without activating.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Yes, I've made the same mistake in the past by misreading that FAQ entry myself.

As for why you have the separate stack of discards, that's because all such card effects have been ruled to be handled that way on the forums. If you take Cleric literally, then you could draw cards from the discards and then discard the cards you just drew as payment, but that is not allowed as the cards are not yet deemed to have entered your hand until the card resolves either, in the same way that the cards you discard don't enter the discard pile until the card resolves.

The only card I am aware of that breaks this trend and doesn't use the effective limbo area for cards you draw and discard is the Duck of Many Things, and that's because it very specifically declares that each action of the card is to resolve in order.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Actually, I wouldn't call it "misreading". It's written that if I need to choose between the cards, I couldn't play Hoard! until I choose it. If I draw treasure for me and my helper, I need to choose which cards I want to keep and which ones go to the helper. So it conforms to this entry and would be applied there. In FAQ itself, It is not mentioned that this entry is related to Bardic Luck only (thanks Andrew - now I've got it), so I think the FAQ needs to be updated.

That's right. I wanted to emphasize that in the steps you've provided, the "draws cards" step should go first, then "discards as payment" step.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

Except, you're not "choosing" which cards get to be kept as part of the Treasure draw when you're choosing which cards you will take and which cards your helper will take, so, no, it doesn't apply to that situation.

Re: Cleric and hoard daisy-chaining
 

The order doesn't seem to matter in this case, so I switched it to describe things more clearly. It also stops you from resurrecting more cards than you have cards in your hand, which is important. Note that they aren't actually discarded until the end of the Resurrection action, I just set them aside first, so the order is actually preserved in the end too.