nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
So, I want to start my game in CtL. I like this setting and its atmosphere, but I never liked Storyteller System - it never was realistic enough for me. But I don't know GURPS good enough yet, and have some problems with conversion. Mainly, I don't know how to convert Contracts system to Magic (Power?) system in GURPS and how to convert Wyrd and Glamour. Latter is the Energy Reserve for Contracts, but how can I make high Wyrd really matter without turning it into another attribute? If somebody solved such problems before, I would much appreciate their advice.
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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It'd help (for me at least) if three terms in particular were defined: Contracts Wyrd Glamour Is "Latter" an in-system term or is it meant to point to the second term of "Wyrd and Glamour"? |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
I could to shake down my husband for CtL details but he hasn't woken up yet - EDIT: from his book, here's what I can do to clarify:
"the latter" does refer to Glamour. It's not another game mechanic. From the lexicon: Contract: A mystical pact struck between the fae and a living embodiment of natural force, allowing the fae to call on supernatural powers. Glamour: The raw supernatural energy that feeds the fae. It is tied to the strong emotions of the human heart. Wyrd: The power of Faerie. (Faerie: Arcadia, or more rarely, the inhabitants of Arcadia. Arcadia: The domain of the True Fae and once-prison to all changelings.) Contracts are organized into themes, such as Artifice, Darkness, Stone, your seasonal court (Spring, summer, fall, or winter), or what kind of fae you are (troll, etc). Each contract is basically a sequence of 5 ranked powers (you must take the first power before the second, the second before the third, and so forth). There are also Goblin Contracts, which are basically "cheating" and will come back to bite you in the face eventually. In GURPS, I would call Contracts simple 5 ability Powers arranged in prerequisite chains. Wyrd controls how high a character can raise his attributes, skills, and contracts, his maximum Glamour capacity, the maximum amount of glamour he can spend per turn, and after a certain point, how crazy he is as he gets totally entangled in Arcadia. Wyrd is an advantage, or a bundle of advantages. It's nonlinear. It's not an attribute any more than Magery is an attribute or Energy Reserve is an attribute - but like Magery and ER it has attribute-like qualities to it. A character with a Wyrd of 1-5 can raise his attributes and skills to human maximum, but no further, after that one level of Wyrd lets him raise his things one level higher - and in WoD human stats range from 1-5 so that's a pretty big deal. I'd call it "everything capped at 18 or 20" (including skills) and at Wyrd 6 and up, a +5 to maximums for each level. This is a 0 point feature, or possibly at most a perk per level above 5 - caps are not a big thing in GURPS. The bulk of Wyrd IS the Energy Reserve that Glamour goes in. Glamour isn't separate from Wyrd. Glamour is Special Recharge IIRC, so you're looking at 1 cp per Glamour; that makes level 1 Wyrd 10 points for 10 glamour, +1 for levels 2-6, and then +5/+10/+20/+50 as it goes very nonlinear. I would call the increase in Glamour spendable per turn to be worth somewhere in the +5 to +20 points per level area, I'd have to sit down and look at how the powers work in detail... |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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Wyrd sounds like an Unusual Background that unlocks higher levels of attributes, abilities, Power Talents, and Energy Reserves. Personally, if I were to make the price of anything non-linear, it'd be with the UB (Wyrd). So each Fae would chose a Wyrd-level. This Wyrd-level would then determine the cap on Power Talent, Power abilities, attributes, Energy Reserve, etc. The accumulated disadvantages could either be purchased to offset the price of a new level of Wyrd and/or a system of Corruption (from GURPS Horror). How'd I do? |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
These parts are fairly strightforward,here is a thread about the magic oths that changelings can swear to each other.
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
I hope you understand that what you're getting into is pretty big, because CtL has lots of crazy stuff going on and it's not gonna be easy to translate all of it in GURPS terms.
That being said, I'm more than willing to try to help you out, even though I'm far from an expert. :) What Bruno said is basically correct, but we should consider that Glamour powers not only Contracts, but also the following: 1. Tokens: magical objects that either come from Arcadia or stayed near it long enough to develop odd abilities. 2. Bedlam: basically making people feel the emotion bound to a Changeling’s court. 3. Strengthening or weakening the Mask: the mask is what an illusion that hides the Changeling’s magical features from mortals. With Glamour, you can either hide the fact that you’re a changeling from your fellow Lost or make everyone think that you dressed up as a satyr for Halloween. 4. Pledges: magical deals that will screw you up if you don’t keep your word and reward you if you do. A Changeling can infuse Glamour in his own words or someone else’s and make a pledge out of it; doing so without the other party’s agreement is considered an action far too close to a True Fae way of thinking and also generally a dick move. In my humble opinion this is the trickiest ability to convert in GURPS terms, even if I think we will make it some kind of Affliction… 5. Kith and Seeming powers: like many WoD critters, Changelings come in various subspecies. Each of them has different powers( I think we can work on them after we have understood how to work with Glamour, but if you would like to hear more, I will post details) Most of these powers are Glamour dependant. 6. Access to the Hedge: the Hedge is a cushion-reality between Arcadia and our world. It’s possible to get there without Glamour, but doing so requires a roll based on Wyrd, so low-powered Changeling probably wish to use some. Glamour is also recharged in unusual ways: 1. Emotions: by syphoning emotions from human beings, Changelings replenish the Glamour (worth noting that this doesn’t harm the humans in any way). Problem is, how they get this emotion varies from time to time (telling a scary urban legend to a bunch of kids works, as does walking along at a funeral) so this is another tricky one. 2. Dreams: yes, Changelings can enter dreams. I told you this wasn’t going to be easy. 3. Pledges: if a pledge states the if you oblige it you get Glamour, you get Glamour. Simple as that. 4. Hedge Bounty: Remember the Hedge? That place has some magical fruits called Goblin Fruit. Some of them give Glamour when eaten. However, eating some without proper knowledge is not a very good idea, since some have… unpleasant effects. To sum up, Glamour should cost more than 3 points apiece IMHO, since it’s both more versatile and easier to recharge. Anyone can tell how much we should make it cost? EDIT: well, it appears someone else easily got the one I said was the trickiest part, making me look like a chum. Oh well, c'est la vie. The idea posted in that other topic sunds good, but I think the effects should be tweaked a little to get something like this: When the pledge takes hold, who made it gets an advantage, or some other benefit, and a one-shot Duty to the other party (the danger level of the Duty depends on the specifical pledge). These two things should balance each other in point terms. If one party breaks the pledge, he gets some sort of disadvantage. So...maybe we should build it like a Curse with Condition (only if one doesn't honor his or her word in this pledge)? |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Honestly, as a person who loves them both, my first response is: DON'T.
Don't convert it. The system is not meant for realism, it's meant for drama, and the attempts of WoD to create realism (I am looking at you, Armory Reloaded) make things worse. Get the feel right over the mechanics. Frex: I would look at what each contract does and what those are in GURPS. Example: Eternal Autumn 4: Ride the Falling Leaves Ignoring all the flowery words: You can fly at about 2/3rds your running speed You only take damage from area effects You are ignored as a pile of leaves. It requires Mantle or Court Goodwill I would build it thus: Ride the Falling Leaves [10]Prereq: Autumn Mantle 3* or Autumn Goodwill 5** Skill: Ride the Falling Leaves (DX/H)*** I type slowly so I am going to skip the flowery words Transformation: Cost 4 ER (Glamour) -20%, PM: Autumn: -10%) [10] Start with Body Air: [36] Replace Flight with: Controlled Gliding, ~3-5 (2/3rds of 5-7) (Flight, Controlled Gliding -45%, Low Ceiling 30ft -10%, , Move -3) [-12] Add Vulnerability: Fire x2 [-30] (Dry Leaves) Add Infiltrartion to Diffuse [40] Since you are a pile of leaves, you can essentially become "invisible" by pilimg up in a street curb. But that's kind of a feature. You a re still a single entity. *Talent that Allows you a bonus to Autumn Powers [5/level] ** Allows you access to a power but not bonus [2/level] *** In the book it's a physical act (uses phys stat) So that's how I'd do it. I would make Glamour an ER, with a cap of 10 + Wyrd. You may want to Make Mantle 10/level, because it counts as status and rank in Changeling culture. Or you may want to make City status seperate. Mantle can go up to 5, I guess, it's weird (wyrd?) talent. I would make a new attribute: Wyrd. Starts at Base 8, costs 10 per level to raise. Limits spending of ER and Some powers will use it as it's skill base. If all do, increase it to 20/level. It's kind of a big deal. Also: Keep in mind that in nWoD 5-6 is the same as a 10-13 in a skill. It's boring professional, and in nWoD equipment giuves bonuses while in gurps it takes away penalties. For example Mirrorskin: They get +3 to Man+Subterfuge to disguise themselves. This is the equivalent to a good disguise kit. In GURPS, this removes the penalty for lack of quipment. So look for an advantage in GURPS that follows that (Elastic Face, in this case) Oh: One more: I'd give Fae Powers Galamour -5% and another -5% of tricks against them, notably cold iron. if you want help, let me know. I may have to convert my current Character to GURPS on a lark. Each Seasonal PM has a penalty for use duing it's opposing season. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Glamour is limited by Wyrd. I have found that glamour is used cheaply and is cheap to regain. It runs like water in a typical changeling. I'd price it at 2/level.
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
ER (Glamour) should never cost more than 3 FP per level.
You can buy everything with Costs FP and power it all out of one pool, along with magic, chi abilities, and a zillion other things - and FP only costs 3/level. The fact that you can power a bunch of stuff with Glamour is irrelevant - because you can't use it to stave off unconciousness from FP damage, from starvation and thirst, you can't use it for Extra Effort (in or out of combat) and you can't use it for anything other than Glamour-sourced powers means that it's a normal ER, not particularly awesome. - in WoD terms, Glamour doesn't help you at all for anything that requires Willpower, Gnosis, Rage, Blood, yadda yadda yadda - but in GURPS, you can spend FP on ALL of that unless your power is further limited by taking "ER only". And don't forget all the core mechanics in WoD that are powered by willpower without being supernatural stunts - that's FP too. Glamour doesn't do that, at least not without a Contract (which you're paying for separately). Magical ER can be used on powers that do just about anything, it's still only 3/level. Glamour isn't any better than that. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
I'm afraid I have been unclear about the subject, and for that I apologize. Allow me to answer what your questions, Jutlander:
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No, every changeling can use each of this methods. And there is no automatic recharge: you want your Glamour, you have to get out there and find it. Quote:
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Mechanically speaking, a brownie has a pledge with a family: the milk they give him not only feeds him, but also restores his Glamour, because it's a form of payment for his work. I don't think it works with normal money, but maybe a modern Changeling could make a similar pledge and pretend a beer for his trouble. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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General note: I'm not statting up full abilities here, just offering suggestions for base advantages. Full write-ups will have be done by those who know the setting and what's appropriate... Quote:
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I can't remember how many you listed (I'll go back and look in a moment), but let's say four: .7 * .7 * .7 * .7 = .24 or a -24% limitation. Apparently, there are many more ways to recharge the ER. Thirteen distinct ways to recharge the ER will put you at Special Recharge as a Feature. The ER doesn't recharge automatically, but it can be recharged through any of many different ways. Quote:
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Special Recharge doesn't include the way to get the energy back. All it does is remove the "innate" recovery of one ER per 10 minutes - you are responsible for buying an ability to recover energy yourself (or equipment based energy recovery, if it exists in your campaign world).
Special Recharge -80% ALSO includes a drain 1/s kicker, which for just a -10% difference seems ridiculously underpriced. All I can imagine is that it was capped at -80% because no enhancements for ER existed and someone sort of reflexively said "GURPS Disads don't provide more than a -80% discount". I prefer to solve both problems by making special/alternate recharge conditions (that aren't already covered by things like Absorption and Leech) into enhancements on the ER advantage - this provides a route to mechanics that aren't currently possible, and gives a reason to make Special Recharge 2 into a more significant limitation cost (appropriately scaled to the rather notable problem it presents). |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
The Mein is supernatural feature. It costs glamour to activate and ensorcelled mortals see through it (IIRC, by blowing all your Glamour). Not really advantageous. I'd almost call it a feature of the changeling template.
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Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Based off of Lamech's earlier build
Pledgemaking[60] Affliction: Unusual Background: Changeling Pledge+50%, permanent+150% Cumulative+400%, Selectivity+10% (So you don't need the whole duration). Melee range, Can only have X contracts active, additional time 3, only on willing targets-100% UB:Changeling Pledge is 5 points, and accompanies a zero point met-trait that contains the effects of the pledge. *Both expire when the time is up. A changeling cannot maintain more than a certain number of pledges, based on their wyrd score |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
That sounds nice, but we should swap "only on willing subjects" with "only with subjects that SAY that they agree". It may sound like nitpicking, but the difference is important: if you can get someone to agree to "do you a favor to be specified at a later date" you can pretty much call on them to do anything you ask and it doesn't matter if they realize too late that the favor you're asking is something dangerous and/or illegal.
There's something else that we should consider: ALL of the aspects of the pledge must be described in order for the pledge to work, including santions for failing and boons for keeping your word. That being said, I don't think this changes much from as far as points go. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
I'll point out that there's a lot more powers that Changelings possess that are detailed in the various sourcebooks. Some of them are things all changelings possess the ability to use (even if they might lack the skill to do so in a competent fashion), others are optional powers that changelings might develop over time.
Universal Powers: Activating Seeming and Kith Powers (CtL Corebook): Every Changeling possesses a Seeming (a broad category of Changelings: Beast, Darkling, Elemental, Fairest, Ogre, or Wizened), and a Kith (a subdivision of their Seeming, like Hunterheart Beasts or Fireheart Elementals). Every Seeming has the ability to spend points of Glamour to gain bonuses to particular Attributes or Skills. This is only limited by the amount of Glamour you can spend each turn (for PC-typical Wyrd scores, this is equal to your Wyrd). Additionally, every Kith grants a certain power; some of these require Glamour expenditure as well. Talecrafting (Swords at Dawn): Simply put, the ability to manipulate Fate by recognizing the patterns in stories occurring in life, or by forcing them to occur (either with mundane labor or simply spending two points of Glamour and making a prayer to Fate), and then they spend 1 point of Glamour and make a roll based on their Wyrd. If the roll succeeds, the desired effect occurs, and they suffer a Cruel Twist of Fate; if they critically succeed, they get the desired effect and no Cruel Twist of Fate. So, for instance, if a Changeling gets captured, she might remember the Animal Helper archetype, and spend three points of Glamour to try and Force one to appear. If she succeeds, one will show up and help her escape, but she might discover that That Job Was Too Easy, and her captor allowed her to escape to further his villainous plan, or that someone close to her is actually a secret traitor. Using this power, though, is addictive, and every time you use it adds a cumulative penalty to resist said addiction; if you fail, you start suffering from extreme moods and seeing everything as just a part of a story. Hedge-Sculpting (Rites of Spring): Changelings who spend a point of Glamour and succeed on a Wyrd-based roll can shift the Hedge like it was clay. The duration is proportional to your Wyrd and depends on how quickly the sculpt was made; regular sculpts last for a matter of hours; quickly pulling hedge-matter over yourself to hide lasts minutes, and weapons last for a number of successful attacks equal to your Wyrd. They can transplant and grow Goblin Fruits (with a successful skill roll, and some appropriate "plant food", like blood, dreams, or a temporarily-lost point of one of his skills or attributes), and hybridize them by spending a point of Glamour. They can spend a point of Glamour to imprint an area with a radius of 50 x number of points of Glamour spent with their ownership, which lasts for a month and allows her to start building a Hollow there, as well as connecting Doors to the mortal world, and shift them to locations she desires. Hedge-Spinning (Rites of Spring): Related to the previous power, this is the ability to produce permanent magical items, by acquiring and molding assorted ingredients while in the Hedge. This always requires a story to accomplish; if they're planning on building a suit of armor, for instance, they might need to acquire the bones and scales of a great hedge-dragon, and of course, the slaying of such a beast would require them to play out such a story. Once the story's concluded, they spend a point of Glamour and make a skill roll, and if they succeed, they've got the item they wanted. It's sort of like a magical version of Fast Gadgeteering. Travelling the Skein (Dancers in the Dusk): Changelings can travel the Skein, the web of inconnected dreams. First, they must enter a dream somehow. Then, they must find a dream-gate, either by having used an application of divination called oneiroscopy to find when and where one is likely to occur (which requires a skill roll and special training to do), finding a guide to show them one, using their magic to force one to appear (causing whoever's dream it was to have nightmares), or simply happening to be near one when it appears naturally (i.e. Storyteller fiat) and succeeding on a Perception roll. The number of dreams the Changeling must travel through to reach the dream that is his destination depends on the strength of the sympathetic connection between his starting dream and his destination. While within a dream he isn't oath-tasked to enter, he cannot use dreamscaping, and suffers penalties to dream riding and dream combat, and can't simply will himself to leave them; for every dream he's travelled, he needs to either retrace his steps, or an hour of rest, during which he'll be trapped in the dreamscape and can't perform actions that require resource expenditure. Optional Powers: Goblin Pledges (Rites of Spring): You develop an innate connection to one or more particular purviews of Wyrd reality (like Candles, Midnight, or Cats). This allows you to make Pledges with those aspects, rather than with other people, and since the other party isn't a person but an aspect of reality, the favors that it can grant essentially act like a free-form magic system. This allows you to, for instance, to make a Pledge to Midnight to shroud yourself in shadows to hide from pursuers, in exchange for breaking every lit streetlight you see for the next month, or to make a Pledge with Cats to get a cat to guide you to someone you're trying to find, in exchange for giving food to a feral cat for a week, and a curse on yourself if you fail to do so. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Nick brings up a whole ton of reasons why you shouldn't try to port over - so much that in game is useful.
In Gurps EVERYTHING (or nearly so) is accounted for. That's why perks like SOP exists - to guarantee no argument. If you are a rich noble, but didn't buy your parents as a patron, you can not guarantee that they'll help you when you ask. if you do buy them, and make the roll, they cannot refuse. (In esssence, to me, spent CP are a pledge of sorts) So adding all of those things, you can suddenly have 500 point characters. Or you can handwave them. Make a Hedgespinning Craft skill (based on IQ, since it's Wits+Craft to do it.) You can ask "what can you do?" and build based on their powers. In fact, I wouldn't force long and multiple roles on hedgespinning, just a penalty based on the hedgespuns powers. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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As for "automatic" and "always successful," I'm not sure there is such a thing in GURPS. Link it with an Affliction to lower Will and/or Mind Shield to increase the Glamour's effectiveness. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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They're highly competent, very tough, and often world-walking (which is expensive in GURPS). And they all come with a big pile of supernatural powers. You can't handwave, unless you plan on NEVER crossing regular human PCs in the same game as some kind of Wod critter, and NEVER crossing a game with two kinds of WoD critter, and NEVER allowing an Ally, Enemy, Dependant, or Patron who is not your kind of critter (including not allowing humans). Because those points being handwaved matter. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
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I wouldn't even know how to replicate Talecrafting (I am, in fact, playing a Talecrafter). getting +3 to all rolls in keeping with your tale is phenominal, easily worth +3 to +6 in GURPS. It takes a brilliant person from default research rolls (Int 4+Academics 0 (-3) untrained = 1 die) to expert researcher (7). So a high IQ person goes from default roll to IQ roll. It's almost inline with super luck or an affliction. It would require a pact with the GM and it would have the limitation, only on rolls in keeping with the tale (which is..what -10% sometimes to -80% sometimes, depending on the nature of the tale) Ultimately, there is too much vaguery in the rules to make a proper changeling by porting rules. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
And there you have Kuroshima's golden rule of conversions, "less is more". Or KISS. Or convert the fluff, the feeling, not the rules. To do otherwise leads to madness (or, as in this case, if you are dealing with White Wolf, Delirium)
Assuming that you want a similar ability to Talecrafting, you can do it, though it won't be pretty. Talecrafting is a bonus if you are remain consistent with your tale? Modular Abilities only to pick custom talents, with other limitations. 3 levels, depending on if you can pick 5, or 15 point talents. |
Re: nWoD to GURPS - Changeling the Lost
Why not use Visualisation?
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