Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

Those states had virtually instantaneous communication and could transport troops from one end to the other in more than a not much more than a week. And they didn't last very long anyway.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

The only reason they have a unified culture is that they are a Psiocracy. It only worked with the Vilani because by the time they tried that they were so far militarily superior to everyone else that they could afford the weaknesses that come from a "unified culture". They could no longer do this when they met the Terrans and the Terrans could not copy them.

Having a unified culture on that level is simply impossible among humans as we know them. The Zho manage it because they are not, in fact, humans as we know them. They are aliens that happen to have human DNA. Aslan are more like the Viliani-Solomani mainstream then Zho are.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

Why do we need Traveller at all? Why do we need Science fiction at all? Heck, why do we need to do anything but get up eat, work enough to eat, work enough to satisfy prospective mates, reproduce, begin process over? Why not just live like Really Smart Apes? We don't NEED a lot of the things that are worth doing. Since when has that had anything to do with it?

But as for why we need Psionics, it is because psionics are a basic science fiction trope, and having a ideological contest between a Psiocracy and an Imperium that persecutes Psis is interesting. It is a good way to create an ideological quarrel that is not just a copy of Earth.

Zho are not really meant to be just "bad guys". If that is how they came out then they weren't played to their full potential. Zho are a sophisticated civilization, that is based in some ways on inherant features that are repugnant to our notions of human rights, specifically the right to freedom of thought. However they are not vicious monsters and they are no more likely to engage in atrocities then anyone else; less so in some ways. The purpose of the Zho is to find a rival empire that is different from the Imperium, and is specifically not a Nazis In Space. For that purpose the Zho do nicely. They provide a regime that sounds extremely frightening to live under, without making them cardboard villains.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

I have no idea - you're the one who's going off on a rant for no reason here.

The question in the OP asked is "what would the Zhodani be without supernatural psi?". I just took it further and asked why people were still trying to have them with any "psi-like abilities" at all (whether technological or otherwise) - why not just go the whole hog and have them without anything like that? There are plenty of ways to control a populace without psychic powers after all.

I don't think we "need" them to have psionics at all. As you point out, they'ree an interesting enough race without them - just in having a civilisation where freedom of thought is so controlled yet apparently so harmonious is a good scifi issue to explore. Is it better to be miserable and free or happy and restricted? Is Zho society really so morally repugnant? It's like the episode of Angel where they avert the "apocalypse" only to find that actually most people would have been quite happy and content if it came to pass. Were they right or wrong?

That's a great 'what if' to explore and scifi is all about the 'what if', after all.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

The answer is simply that having a Psiocracy is a distinctive enough idea to be worth playing with. We surely don't "need" it, though it is hard to picture the Zho as the Zho without it. But it is interesting, and being interesting is good enough of a reason. Having a Psiocracy is also a great "what-if"

As for "supernatural" psi, the proper term is "preternatural". Supernatural must come from a source outside the universe(which is why even Greek gods are not "supernatural"). That is neither here nor there.

Part of the reason I sounded irritated is that I suspect, like several people here apparently, that you have a prejudice against soft sci-fi as a genre. Traveller is soft sci-fi and Psi belongs in it. Admittedly you dislike the use of the term "science" fiction for settings that accept questionable science. Which is understandable, although I am a history buff and don't really mind having Sidhe in Sevenwaters and calling it "historical" fantasy. I do get irritated by Britons having names like Richard, Hugh, and Simon, which were as far as I can remember not current in that era. I don't think however that this stops Sevenwaters from being a Historical Fantasy and a darn good one. Likewise I don't think soft science stops Traveller from being "sci-fi". Perhaps you prefer the term Space Saga? That relieves the need for terms that imply scientific accuracy. Traveller is certainly a Space Saga and a darn good one, just as Sevenwaters is a darn good historical fantasy.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

yeah, but it's an unnecessary one. The Psi is one means to get the interesting society, but there are otherr more mundane ways to still have a similar kind of society. I think the meat of the 'what if' concerns the nature of the society itself, not the means in which it got there.

Well that's the word the OP used. Though in the OTU isn't psi supposed to have something to do with jumpspace? So technically it IS supernatural...


That is "neither here nor there" for this discussion though. This has nothing to do with my "prejudices" - I'm just asking "why not just remove all the supernatural/preternatural/magic/whatever you want to call it powers" because I think that's an interesting angle to take (and it's in line with the title of the thread). Merely replacing the Psi with some other form of technological mind control doesn't really that change much in broad terms.

The Psi angle makes the whole thing feel 'telegraphed' IMO - the imperium hates psi, the zhos use psi, therefore the imperium hates the zhos. It's too obvious for my taste, and I don't think the psi is even necessary to make the zhos an interesting 'bad guy'.

And we've been told not to restart the discussion of what genre Traveller is supposed to be, so I won't answer that part.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

Ok, sure, why not. I happen to like the Zho the way they are. But hey!

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

In any case Psi is not vulnerable to criticism as "bad science" because the author neither believed it nor expected readers to. It was not bad science because it was not science nor portrayed as such(as a discipline it seems closer to Oriental martial arts in flavor). It is however, a common trope in "space saga" to use a new term, and a fairly useful one at times.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

Whether Psi is "good science" or bad science" isn't relevant to this discussion. I certainly didn't raise that aspect of the topic here, and it's not why I raised the 'no psi-like ability at all' angle either.

Re: Zhodani without Psi
 

Psi / mind magic isn't science of any sort. It's simply a back door from which to squeeze in magic super powers. It can be fun, but I usually prefer science fiction further removed from comic books.

But to be Zho, they must have some form of populace control and creepy uniformity.
How can that be done without invoking magic? That's the point of this thread, I believe, not why do it at all.