Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

In a Dungeon Fantasy setting, is a person wearing a meteoric Great Helm immune to mind control spells?

Can a person with Danger Sense (limitation: Magical) sense and incoming meteoric arrow? Does a Deflect missile spell protect against meteoric arrows and sling stones? Does the arrow have to be completely made of meteoric metal or is the meteoric arrow head sufficient?

Can divination spells see the impending destruction of a world about to be hit by a meteor? Can a magical Danger Sense actually sense a meteor about to hit a character?

If I have a meteoric sword and I am being teleported, does my sword get left behind?

Please help me answer these questions and points go to those that come up with more clever examples. (I guess you can buy imaginary Kudos with those points... :)

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

No. Meteoric gear cannot be affected by magic, but it does not block magic.
The interaction between meteoric and detection effects is unclear, but it's reasonable to say it will be invisible to magical detection. However, a non-meteoric shaft can be detected and affected normally by magic, and will generally take the arrow tip with it.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Nope, the helm is immune to magical levitation to remove it, but it doesn't produce an anti-magic field to prevent other magic working around it (such as mind control). Of cause the helm could be enchanted through other means (chi skills, divinity, cosmic-ness) to confer immunity to mind control separately whilst still being meteoric.

Interesting question, I'd say if it was completely made of meteoric metal then it shouldn't be detected with Danger Sense - if its got non-meteoric parts I'd let it be detected normally though (or perhaps with a roll if the parts themselves are odd enough as so to fool the sense as to if its dangerous).

No, to both. Which makes them quite good "we don't know how the world will end, but we know it will - now go find out how" prophecies.

Yes it would be left behind, it can't be affected by magic - so it can't be teleported by it. Same goes for meteoric armour actually, which might be an interesting way of making someone more squishy!

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Wouldn't this depend on the composition of the meteor? Only if it's 100% meteoric metal would it be totally undetectable...

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

This is fantasy. Dungeon fantasy. Why wouldn't a meteor be made of 100% meteoric metal???

Oh god! You're trying to kill the catfolk aren't you? You're 'Intolerance: Catfolk' has been upgraded into 'Fanaticism: Kill all Catfolk with science' hasn't it? You monster.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I don't know where this came from, but I suspect the same place all genius does! You have me laughing (maniacally) with glee that I finally have a victim capable of understanding the subtlty of my plans! Now, if I can only turn you to the Cause...

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Who says meteoric rock isn't equally immune? It's just that magic-immune pebbles are generally less useful than magic-immune iron.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Wouldn't all parts of a meteor be "meteoric"?

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Who say it is? Meteoric rock isn't called out in DF (that I know of...?), but meteoric metal (iron?) is. So it seems to be a GM call.

"Meteoric" doesn't carry any special properties all on its own, as far as I know, in DF. Meteoric iron, though, is specifically called out as being immune to magic.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

It's a GM call and the sort of thing that generally won't come up in setting, since stony meteorites basically look like rocks and are unlikely to be recognized for what they are until higher TL.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Well you can find them by the fact that they don't respond to magic. So they might be good as sling ammo. Enough to build a wall is unlikely.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

This is basically a setting question, and DF is a reductionist setting - so I'd least say it was in-keeping to use this assumption.

Well very few things fall out of the heavens really, so it might be that anything that does is considered "meteoric" and is conveniently also immune to magic.

This is great reason for allowing this kind of interpretation of the rules, as you now have magically immune, cheap - but weak ammunition for your slings!


However as has been said already - this is basically the GM's call. If the GM wants to smite a magically danger sensing foe without them realising - then they can say that the meteor is 100% iron anyway. If the GM wants oddly vague prophecies about the end of the world due to it being struck by a meteor, then its the entire basis of the plot and "story trumps rules" here imo as without a GM telling a story the rules are kinda pointless.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

While true, this makes most meteoric armor and shields kind of lame in practice. Unless your opponents routinely attack your armor, and not you, it's not doing much for all that cost.

But it might be fun if it does in fact effectively block spells from passing through the armor.

- Maybe you can't cast a mind control spell on a guy wearing a greathelm, because you can't get through his helm. Or cast it on a guy wearing a pothelm if you're behind him, for the same reason - you need to move to where his face is a valid target.

- It might be impossible to send commands via Enslave to someone wearing meteoric armor, because your telepathic connection is blocked.

- You probably can't cast touch spells though the armor, anyway, but it would be interesting if, say, meteoric gauntlets prevented magic traps from firing or blocked spells cast on your hands.

- Pure magical damage should be blocked entirely (mana bolts from DF11), as should any magical delivery system (Curse-Missile), if it must go through a piece of meteoric armor to reach the target.

Otherwise, it's not so helpful as armor. It's even more useless against spells like Teleport Other (hey, NPCs might have it) or Entombment, where you'll leave your armor behind. I wouldn't try treating it as some kind of anti-magic auto-dispel-er, but I kind of like the idea that meteoric armor might give some limited anti-magical effect merely by being between the caster and the victim. If you view magic as curving around obstacles to get there, not as LOS (and I believe this is the RAW), then it's not going to work, and meteoric armor is back to being of marginal use, IMO.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

A To Hit penalty to Mind Control spells against people with helmets?

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I could see giving casters a penalty to affect someone wearing meteoric armor, probably based on its DR (average of Torso + weakest, as is done for Large Area Injuries, or else have different types of spells "target" different locations - head for mind control, limb for Spasm, etc). Of course, spellcasting while wearing Meteoric armor should also be hampered, by the same penalty plus an additional penalty based on the combined mass of Meteoric gear carried (armor and weapons).

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I agree that meteoric armour is a little lack lustre if only it is immune to magic - although I'd say that magical bolts can't pass through it as written.

The rest of the ideas are indeed fun though, but you do have to watch how far you push the idea - and it becomes a slippery slope where meteoric iron slowly just becomes something that produces an anti-magic zone around it, rather than simply being immune to magic itself.

Now this may be what you want, and prefer (as its more interesting) but it is something different in a fairly fundamental way - and at that point you're opening the door to players trying to reason munchkiny gains from the described mechanics (like foil plating regular iron with meteoric iron to give it the same benefits at a fraction of the cost!).

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

That's why I'd tie the benefits of Meteoric Armor to its DR, or more generically its mass per surface area. If you've got just a tin-foil-thick coating, sure it'll be immune to the spell Remove Enamel, but it won't provide any additional benefit.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

A simple version is just that meteoric iron armor provides magic resistance equal to its DR.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

One would hope the person wearing meteoric armor (which interferes with magic being cast on its' wearer) doesn't need magical healing ...

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

This issue makes me think of an invisible cloak. The cloak is invisible... That is all.

Juggernaut has a meteoric helm?

I think the statistic is that 90/10 percent of meteors are carbonaceous/iron. But of those that survive to hit earth are 10/90 percent such.

Besides, what would you do with meteoric carbon?
Burn it for a temporary anti-magic smoke screen?
Blacken armor for temporary anti-magic properties?

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I can see your point - but Meteoric items do have some boons, even if they're less impressive than they first seem when applied to armour and shields.

I'd still rule that you can use meteoric shields to block magical attacks (although note that things such as fireball tend not to be magical once thrown), and that meteoric armour grants full protection against magical attacks unless its aimed at a hit location not covered by it.

Just because your meteoric helm doesn't stop you getting mind-controlled, doesn't prevent it from being useful against that Magical Bolt to the skull - which may I add very much hurt. Armour is meant to stop you getting injured from attacks, and that's very much what the helm does here, why should it do anything else?

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

With an invisible cloak, the cloak is invisible; with an invisibility cloak, you are.

This is the same, it's a magic resistant shield, not a shield of magic resistance. If you want the latter, then go buy that instead.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Whilst a magically resistant shield is an ordinary shield enchanted with extra DR? =D

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I'd allow a meteoric helmet to protect against mind control spells.

It would make the world of fantasy less fantastic if it didn't. This is why you want meteoric stuff - to have cool effects like this without overly technical jargon of whether or not it needs to completely encapsulate to protect etc. It's [anti-]magic!

In fact, it is well known that the Emperor of Hyathan wears a crown of star metal precisely because it shields him from the magical manipulations of evil sorcerers.

Just as it is well known that the archway into the grand court is composed entirely of star metal that will for a brief moment suspend ongoing enchantments on people passing through, in order to prevent shapeshifters and illusionists from infiltrating the court.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I always assume that the entrance to any prosperous town or city has been drained of mana for exactly that reason. The ability to disrupt magical disguises (especially those of demons and devils) is just too valuable to pass up.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I suggest you apply targeting penalties to the spell. So if the eyes are the only non-protected area, you roll at -10. If the face is the only non-protected area, roll at -3 (? IDHMBWM), etc.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I think you hit on something here. I like answers that stray away from all or nothing solutions and this is right in that vein.

Talk about this a bit more. Throw your ideas out there.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Okay, well lets discuss the practicality of implementation.

Lets work out the regular meteoric armour first, DR = magic resistance (I'm shortening this to MR from this point on) seems easy enough but how are we applying this? Total DR from all meteoric armour worn? This could be very high if heavy armour is worn in all locations - although that would be very expensive to produce so perhaps this is fair.
Another approach might be the average between the best and worse or - the same as large area damage - or simply using the best DR. Of cause both of these promotes a wearing a single piece of heavy meteoric armour as the cost and effort of armouring all your hit locations in order to bring up your lowest DR is too great.
You might consider using more complex means of calculating averages or using partial contribution from additional pieces of meteoric armour to encourage you to wear as more than one item - but this will just lead to annoying maths each time someone takes off their meteoric helm whilst still wearing their meteoric boots.

Also, if you're using DR (of meteoric armour) as magic resistance then how does a meteoric shield work? It doesn't provide DR (but does have a DR for itself) so does it provide any magical resistance? Lets say it provides MR equal to its DB - as this seems reasonable and easy to add in - in addition to its normal characteristics of being meteoric (can't cast shatter on it or use magical telekinesis to disarm it etc). Then you have the question of if this contributes to the MR from your meteor armour or not too!

Then comes the question of if all of this MR is additive with innate MR, or again if just the best between the two is used. The former rewards everyone equally and makes sense why 'star-metal' is valued by everyone, however the latter stops naturally MR creatures (like Ogres, Goblin-kin and Gnomes) becoming truly unstoppable by magic when they don heavy meteoric armour! Although, this may be a feature rather an a terrifying bug - and magic resistance does only stop magic affecting you, so you can still be toasted in your armour by fireballs and the like.

The final thing to consider is if you want to go through the effort of using MR per hit location, considering you're only armouring those areas and so its logical that this might be the case (as we've already discussed with helms making you immune to mind-control). The first thing to worry about here is the huge amount of numbers you now have to look up, and the scale to which it actually impacts the world - of cause a meteoric helm stops mind-control, and meteoric boots might stop flying spells... but what do meteoric greaves do? Is the only benefit to wearing a meteoric codpiece MR against the Strike Barren spell? Do I need to make meteoric mail to add Arming Garments to my meteoric plate so that it grants full MR to my torso?

This neatly leads on to other basic questions like "does meteoric Medium Scale (DR 4) grant the same MR as meteoric Fine Mail (DR 4)? and if so why when it weighs so much more as has less gaps in it?"...

Of cause I'm not even going to try and answer all of these questions, but I will point out that there are some far reaching consequences for these choices and it will cause some tactics in armouring to become more popular (and optimal) than others - which may then also have a noteworthy decrease in the potency of magic users in the setting (although they get so many free meal tickets anyway that I wouldn't mind too much).

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

For touch effects, DR of the location touched. Otherwise, average of torso and worst armor, like large area damage.
It lets you block melee spells, which normally cannot be blocked.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Another idea to throw into the ring, inspired by discussion upthread:

Instead of adding immunities or MR, allow the DR to be applied to Melee spells that bypass DR, and double DR against the rest of those MR-bypassing Melee, Jet, Area, and Ranged spells that otherwise interact normally with DR.

So now Meteoric Iron armor does protect especially against Fireball, and Deathtouch, and Create Fire, and so on and so forth.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Oh I like this one! Much more straight forward and does add some cool functionality.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

Being able to apply DR to melee spells that ignore DR is very marginal; many of the melee spells don't do direct damage. DR (deathtouch only) isn't useless, but that's pretty much what it is. Double DR against regular damage spells doesn't make sense, because it isn't resisting magic -- it's resisting a mundane effect where the effect was created by magic. It's kind of like providing extra DR against an object thrown by magic.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

That's exactly how DR vs one power source works. I don't see a dichtomy here.

Re: Meteoric Metal vs Magic
 

I wouldn't bother apply DR to touch spells. If meteoric iron is unaffected by magic, it should just block the spells period, nevermind give some DR. I'd think it would do that now, as written, because presumably the magic is going from the mage through the armor to you (and if not, you're not actually touching the target). The Magic Resistance approach is okay, but I'd probably make it more effective than that, yet more limited - works on spells that affect the body parts covered only, helmets block mind control magics, body armor blocks most whole-body spells unless delivered by touch to another body part, etc.

The cheapest torso armor is 20x cost and thus in the 4K range, and blocks good and bad magic equally well. That's good enough for me, personally.

As for the "tinfoil" approach, just disallow it. Seriously, why make up complex rules instead of just saying, no, you can't usefully make meteoric plating for armor, it needs to be solid, and the thinnest form you can make is light scale or mail?

Just because some munchkin starts blathering about foil plating doesn't mean you have to provide it or let them make it. If you compelled to make them, just make sure you apply very, very harsh rules about rusting, layering armor, damage to armor (foiling will scrape off, and even a small scrape removes the defensive nature of it), etc.