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-   -   Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Archer) (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=174068)

Boge 07-14-2021 03:51 PM

Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Archer)
 
1. Our group feels with certain weapons for Weapon Master the cost isn't balanced real well. For Weapon Master Bow you get less damage bonus (comparitively to swing bonuses at ST13+), you don't get the reduced multiple parry bonus. Same can be said for other weapons that only use thrust or no parries. We feel the cost for certain specialties should be reduced a bit and I'm looking for suggestions on what a fair reduced cost would be. For instance, Weapon Master (Bow) should be 12 or 15 points rather than 20.

2. The book suggests "knightly weapons" as a group. What other groupings are there in any of the books, if any? What would you suggest? What about something with an archer or ranger using primarily bows?

Christopher R. Rice 07-14-2021 04:12 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388334)
1. Our group feels with certain weapons for Weapon Master the cost isn't balanced real well. For Weapon Master Bow you get less damage bonus (comparitively to swing bonuses at ST13+), you don't get the reduced multiple parry bonus. Same can be said for other weapons that only use thrust or no parries. We feel it should be reduced a bit and I'm looking for suggestions on what a fair reduced cost would be.

In my wuxia campaign I turned the bonus per die into a flat bonus and that worked out GREAT. Each +1/die = +2

the_matrix_walker 07-14-2021 04:22 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
1. I highly recommend customizing Weapon Master with a fabulous Christopher R. Rice creation:

https://www.ravensnpennies.com/gurps...er-advantages/

2. Ninja Weapons from DF 12 is the only one that jumps to mind.

Boge 07-14-2021 04:26 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2388336)
In my wuxia campaign I turned the bonus per die into a flat bonus and that worked out GREAT. Each +1/die = +2

Could you expand on that a bit? I don't understand "Each +1/die = +2"

Christopher R. Rice 07-14-2021 04:43 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388339)
Could you expand on that a bit? I don't understand "Each +1/die = +2"

For Weapon Master you get a +1/die damage boost at skill level of DX+1 or +2/die at DX+2 or greater. This simply turns the per die bonus you'd get into a flat bonus. So if you knew Bow at DX+2 and had Weapon Master (Bow) then you'd get +4 to damage instead of +2/die.

the_matrix_walker 07-14-2021 04:49 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Using the Basic Set, you could just declare a list of Ranger weapons. Might look something like:

Weapon Master: Ranger Weapons (Shortbow, Longbow, Knife, Broadsword, Shortsword, Staff, and spear) Medium group [35]


... Or chose 4 of those to call a small class for [30]

Farmer 07-14-2021 04:58 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
A good way to increase bow damage is to take the Strong Bow perk. It allows you to pull a heavier / higher ST bow which gives you another +1 to damage, effectively. You could just incorporate that into Weapon Master (Bow) for free.

If you want to get more "value" into the advantage, allow Fast Draw (bow) and Fast Draw (Arrow) at bow skill level without needing separate skills if you have Weapon Master (bow). Note it also gives you access to Zen Archery (with Bow 18+ and Meditation), which can be nice at times.

Christopher R. Rice 07-14-2021 05:01 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
In the past I allowed those with Weapon Master bow to add their Bow skill level to ST to determine the best draw strength they could use. So if you had Bow at DX+5, then you'd add +5 to your ST to determine the highest ST bow you could use. It subsumed Strongbow completely.

Boge 07-14-2021 07:22 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
I kinda love these ideas! Thanks guys, and keep 'em coming if you have them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2388341)
For Weapon Master you get a +1/die damage boost at skill level of DX+1 or +2/die at DX+2 or greater. This simply turns the per die bonus you'd get into a flat bonus. So if you knew Bow at DX+2 and had Weapon Master (Bow) then you'd get +4 to damage instead of +2/die.

I'm still not quite understanding. Can you give me some comparison examples, say someone with Broadsword skill at 16 (DX+3) vs Bow at 18 (DX+5)? And how would it change with higher or lower skills? Sorry...I'm feeling stupid right now.

Most of the time our players have higher than skill+2, so does it continue to get higher with skill or does it cap at a certain point? What damage would my ST 13 Broadsword skill 22 be doing with Weapon Master Broadsword?

Fred Brackin 07-14-2021 07:28 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmer (Post 2388343)
A good way to increase bow damage is to take the Strong Bow perk.

Also take the Foot Archery Style from Martial Arts. That allows 3 levels of Arm ST with special exercises. This can turn a guy with 14 ST for a abse into a user of a 19 ST bow. That gives him 2d-1 Thrusting wihich helps out the WM issue.

Generally i would not sweat the WM/Bow thing. Every point of bow damage is so important that the 20pts is totally worth it. It's Heroic Archer that I'm iffy about.

Christopher R. Rice 07-14-2021 07:30 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388354)
I kinda love these ideas! Thanks guys, and keep 'em coming if you have them.



I'm still not quite understanding. Can you give me some comparison examples, say someone with Broadsword skill at 16 (DX+3) vs Bow at 18 (DX+5)? And how would it change with higher or lower skills? Sorry...I'm feeling stupid right now.

Most of the time our players have higher than skill+2, so does it continue to get higher with skill or does it cap at a certain point? What damage would my ST 13 Broadsword skill 22 be doing with Weapon Master Broadsword?

It doesn't change at levels higher than DX+2. It's literally like this: DX+1 gives you +1/die of damage when using a weapon your Weapon Master covers. If it's at DX+2 or higher you get +2/die of damage with the weapon. That's it.

With my change instead of a bonus per die, it gives a flat bonus to damage. +2 at DX+1 or +4 at DX+2 or greater. That's it. :-)

Farmer 07-14-2021 08:17 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 2388356)
Also take the Foot Archery Style from Martial Arts. That allows 3 levels of Arm ST with special exercises. This can turn a guy with 14 ST for a abse into a user of a 19 ST bow. That gives him 2d-1 Thrusting which helps out the WM issue.

Good point. Also worth nothing that it's impaling damage, so good modifiers there, particularly if you target vitals.

Emerikol 07-15-2021 06:26 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2388357)
It doesn't change at levels higher than DX+2. It's literally like this: DX+1 gives you +1/die of damage when using a weapon your Weapon Master covers. If it's at DX+2 or higher you get +2/die of damage with the weapon. That's it.

With my change instead of a bonus per die, it gives a flat bonus to damage. +2 at DX+1 or +4 at DX+2 or greater. That's it. :-)

Somewhere I've seen this approached used in a different context so it is very much in keeping with the GURPS approach. Would you make it a rule everyone has to take or would it be the better of the two options?

Anders 07-15-2021 07:35 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2388336)
In my wuxia campaign I turned the bonus per die into a flat bonus and that worked out GREAT. Each +1/die = +2

Did you do the same with Brawling, Boxing and Karate?

Rupert 07-15-2021 09:28 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emerikol (Post 2388415)
Somewhere I've seen this approached used in a different context so it is very much in keeping with the GURPS approach. Would you make it a rule everyone has to take or would it be the better of the two options?

Martial Arts does this in reverse, with things like All-out Attack (Strong's) +2 damage being translated into "+2 or +1/die, which ever is better", and +1 damage being also +1 per 2 dice.

Christopher R. Rice 07-15-2021 11:28 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emerikol (Post 2388415)
Somewhere I've seen this approached used in a different context so it is very much in keeping with the GURPS approach. Would you make it a rule everyone has to take or would it be the better of the two options?

It's a standard GURPSism. But yes. You could rule it works everywhere. I did. It wasn't a real issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2388425)
Did you do the same with Brawling, Boxing and Karate?

Yes.

The Benj 07-15-2021 07:21 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2388425)
Did you do the same with Brawling, Boxing and Karate?

I wouldn't for the regular skill, but as a feature of Trained By A Master, that would be great.

Kalzazz 07-15-2021 08:31 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
I allow Player choice of Skill/5 or +2/die for things normally able to hit +2/die, and Skill/8 or +1/die

So A skill 25 archer could get +5 damage even with ST 10

A skill DX+2 ST 31 weapon master can still get +12 for 6 base dice on a swing

Christopher R. Rice 07-16-2021 12:26 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Benj (Post 2388501)
I wouldn't for the regular skill, but as a feature of Trained By A Master, that would be great.

I'll note EVERYONE had Trained by a Master in the campaign where the rule was used. I don't know if I'd require it for all campaigns. Maybe. Doesn't seem to be needed though.

Boge 07-19-2021 01:15 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
What suggestions would you have just for a reduced price for Weapon Master Bow vs other melee weapons? If Weapon Master Sword is 20 points, my group feels Bow doesn't benefit as much, so what cost should Weapon Master Bow be if it's reduced?

Kalzazz 07-19-2021 04:49 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Well could just drop it to 10 or 15 or whatever feels good

Varyon 07-19-2021 04:59 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388954)
What suggestions would you have just for a reduced price for Weapon Master Bow vs other melee weapons? If Weapon Master Sword is 20 points, my group feels Bow doesn't benefit as much, so what cost should Weapon Master Bow be if it's reduced?

For my Limit Breakers, I felt TbaM was worth roughly [10] for unlocking access to the various cinematic/esoteric Skills/Techniques/Advantages, and roughly [10] each for reduced Rapid Strike penalties and reduced Parry penalties. Full-blown Weapon Master (All Muscle-Powered Weapons) [45] would presumably be similarly [10] for unlocking access, [10] for reduced Rapid Strike penalties, [10] for Reduced Parry penalties, with the remaining [15] covering the damage boost* and the various miscellaneous effects (like improved defaults). [10] out of [45] reduces down to [4.44] out of [20], so [15] or [16] seems roughly fair for a single-weapon variant that doesn't grant reduced Parry iteration penalties.

*Assuming "Armed Only" is around -10% or so, [15] worth of Striking ST with that Limitation would buy you a little over 3 levels, which at typical human combatant ST levels is around +1.5 damage to thr, +3 damage to sw.

EDIT: I could see a case made for TbaM being roughly [15] for reduced Rapid Strike penalties and [15] for reduced Parry iteration penalties, with its ability to serve as a prerequisite being a freebie. In that case, full-blown Weapon Master would have the same [15] cost for those two aspects. [15] out of [45] reduces down to [6.67] out of [20], so [13] or [14] for the single-weapon variant that doesn't grant reduced Parry iteration penalties would work. I'd probably round that up to [15] (just as above I'd probably round down to [15]).

Boge 10-19-2021 02:26 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2388344)
In the past I allowed those with Weapon Master bow to add their Bow skill level to ST to determine the best draw strength they could use. So if you had Bow at DX+5, then you'd add +5 to your ST to determine the highest ST bow you could use. It subsumed Strongbow completely.

Did you do this along with the damage change?

Christopher R. Rice 10-19-2021 05:36 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400327)
Did you do this along with the damage change?

If they also had Heroic Archer, yes. But for a highly cinematic campaign.

Balor Patch 10-19-2021 10:32 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388354)
I'm still not quite understanding. Can you give me some comparison examples, say someone with Broadsword skill at 16 (DX+3) vs Bow at 18 (DX+5)? And how would it change with higher or lower skills? Sorry...I'm feeling stupid right now.

A character with <swung_weapon_skill> at DX+2 and weapon master currently does 1d+2 at ST 10, 2d+4 at ST 14, 3d+6 at ST 17, etc. The bonus adds are twice the base dice.

Under Chris' system the same character would do 1d+2, 2d+2, and 3d+2. The bonus is and always shall be 2.

Rupert 10-20-2021 06:40 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Balor Patch (Post 2400381)
A character with <swung_weapon_skill> at DX+2 and weapon master currently does 1d+2 at ST 10, 2d+4 at ST 14, 3d+6 at ST 17, etc. The bonus adds are twice the base dice.

Under Chris' system the same character would do 1d+2, 2d+2, and 3d+2. The bonus is and always shall be 2.

Actually, Chris was giving +4 at DX+2, so the sequence is 1d+4, 2d+4, 3d+4, etc. For swing damage Chris' rule becomes worse than the RAW at ST17+ for swing damage, and ST27+ for thrust damage.

It also makes weapon masters using thrust/impaling weapons really, really scary.

Gnome 10-20-2021 09:20 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
In my DF games, I find that the utility of a bow more than makes up for its drawbacks. The ability to hit enemies at range, especially when you get into insanely high skill levels where range penalties aren't that significant, is just dominating. If you encounter an enemy that's 50 yards away, you can start shooting and get many attacks in before they close to melee distance. If the enemies fly, you might be the only one that can attack them. And so on...

I've found that in many of the battles I planned as GM, I specifically had to think about how to prevent the Scout from just winning the battle outright before anyone else got a chance to act (this is a high-level Scout with skill 30+, ST 20+ and multiple Extra Attacks). Eg. the group is attacked by a flock of wyverns, but as they fly over the rise of the mountaintops the Scout starts shooting--by the time they close to the distance they need to get to start grabbing PCs and dropping them over cliffs or whatever, they all have arrows in their eyes. Eventually important NPCs start wearing Missile Shield spells, learning Parry Missile Weapons, hiding in magical Darkness, etc.

Rupert 10-20-2021 09:51 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2400425)
I've found that in many of the battles I planned as GM, I specifically had to think about how to prevent the Scout from just winning the battle outright before anyone else got a chance to act (this is a high-level Scout with skill 30+, ST 20+ and multiple Extra Attacks). Eg. the group is attacked by a flock of wyverns, but as they fly over the rise of the mountaintops the Scout starts shooting--by the time they close to the distance they need to get to start grabbing PCs and dropping them over cliffs or whatever, they all have arrows in their eyes. Eventually important NPCs start wearing Missile Shield spells, learning Parry Missile Weapons, hiding in magical Darkness, etc.

And no dungeon corridor ever has a straight run longer than one turn's move for the primary inhabitants...

Gnome 10-20-2021 10:17 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2400430)
And no dungeon corridor ever has a straight run longer than one turn's move for the primary inhabitants...

Yes, that is one of the many artificial workarounds that GMs in DF must employ in order to defang the Scout!

Boge 10-20-2021 11:53 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
I wrote up a big comparison chart yesterday and I really like his change to Weapon Master bonus damage. I pitched it to our GM. Hopefully he'll go for it. I'm thinking maybe a +1 damage per skill +1 DX up to a max of 4. Weapon Master is about skill, not strength. So the more skilled you are, the more you'd be able to wield a weapon for maximum output.

I think it would also keep unskilled characters with Weapon Master All in check. A character that never picked up an axe shouldn't be able to hit someone for an extra 4 damage in my opinion.

Fred Brackin 10-20-2021 01:13 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400454)
.

I think it would also keep unskilled characters with Weapon Master All in check. A character that never picked up an axe shouldn't be able to hit someone for an extra 4 damage in my opinion.

The Basic Set shares your opinion. He doesn't get any bonus there either. You ahve to know the weapon skill at DX +1 or +2. The awarding bonuses per die just keeps small weapons and users from being disproportionately benefited over large ones.

Boge 10-20-2021 03:40 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 2400467)
The Basic Set shares your opinion. He doesn't get any bonus there either. You ahve to know the weapon skill at DX +1 or +2. The awarding bonuses per die just keeps small weapons and users from being disproportionately benefited over large ones.

Right...durr. I knew that. Sorry.

But what I find is that weapon master scales too much with strength. It should scale more based off DX. So I hope our group changes it.

Rupert 10-20-2021 06:41 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400502)
Right...durr. I knew that. Sorry.

But what I find is that weapon master scales too much with strength. It should scale more based off DX. So I hope our group changes it.

Weapon Master's bonus scales with damage, as a fixed fraction. Thus if it scales too strongly either the bonus is too big (and you only notice with the bigger numbers) or damage itself scales off ST too strongly (which a lot of people think is the case for swing damage).

As for damage scaling off DX - DX is already a very powerful combat stat. Making damage as well as hitting and not being hit scale off it might be too much.

Varyon 10-21-2021 08:27 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388954)
What suggestions would you have just for a reduced price for Weapon Master Bow vs other melee weapons? If Weapon Master Sword is 20 points, my group feels Bow doesn't benefit as much, so what cost should Weapon Master Bow be if it's reduced?

I know I gave a different response earlier in the thread, but another idea is to let the [20] version of Weapon Master (Bow) cover all bows, not just a single design. Normally, that [20] would allow for Weapon Master (Regular Bow), Weapon Master (Long Bow), Weapon Master (Short Bow) or similar. General Weapon Master (Bow) should probably cost [30], as it covers a Small Group (all bows - the above plus reflex bow, composite bow, etc). Discounting that down to [20] gives an appropriate discount to make up for bows getting no Parry benefit (unless you have DF's Bow Fencer, anyway), and now your character can basically pick up any bow (of appropriate draw weight) and go to town with it.

DouglasCole 10-21-2021 11:03 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2400518)
As for damage scaling off DX - DX is already a very powerful combat stat. Making damage as well as hitting and not being hit scale off it might be too much.

The canonical way to increase damage with DX/skill is "shoot them somewhere important, like the vitals, brain, chinks in armor, or brain-through-the-eyes." (I know you know this already).

Boge 10-21-2021 02:55 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
I mean based off weapon skill over your DX. So a weapon skill DX+1 would grant you +1 damage. Skill DX+3 would give +3 damage up to a max of +4, maybe +5.

Incase any of you are curious:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Chart showing the average damages TH vs SW with weapon master. Normal vs modded. I didn't enter Swing damage to vitals as it's not common in our Gurps. I like how the change flattens the curve a bit.

Boge 10-21-2021 03:01 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2400601)
The canonical way to increase damage with DX/skill is "shoot them somewhere important, like the vitals, brain, chinks in armor, or brain-through-the-eyes." (I know you know this already).

It doesn't work when you can't penetrate their armor or skull because even with weapon master you're still rolling 1d+1. That's been my experience with a bow, although I don't have weapon master, but that would only give me a +2 damage which would still be low. So far my experience has been about a 50% chance to do damage to my foe. And when I do it's only around 2-4 damage after impaling bonuses.

Meanwhile, our warrior is cutting with an axe twice per round with rapid strikes for 8-12 damage averages. Same ST, by the way.

Farmer 10-21-2021 03:25 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
The warrior should also be at risk of return melee attacks, where as with a bow you likely aren't.

What you seem to need is some level of AD for your arrows (although as mentioned, shooting for chinks in armour would half the enemy DR in most cases, unless it's natural DR).

If you didn't want the expense of arrows crafted or magicked to provide AD, what about something like a Perk that for every +3 or +4 above DX, and assuming TBaM or WM, you get a level of AD? If it seems too strong, make it +5. It represents extraodinary training and skill allows the arrows to be aimed/twisted/etc. such that they tend to cut through DR?

Also, you may have already buyt if not have you considered Strong Bow? the extra +1 damage would help with both DR penetration and final damage.

Fred Brackin 10-21-2021 03:26 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400621)
It doesn't work when you can't penetrate their armor or skull because even with weapon master you're still rolling 1d+1.u.

Bows are muscle powered weapons. You're not going to do damage without muscle. You're meant to buy raw ST and then expand that with Foot Archery Style leading to the Strongbow Perk and then WM:Bow and probably Arm ST after that.

Regular ST 14 with Arm ST +3 plus Strongbow and WM gets you to a ST19 bow and doing 2D+5. Impaling.

Boge 10-21-2021 11:53 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
This new post is less about bows vs melee and more about thrust vs swing. Swing is clearly better at strengths 13+ and only get better and better with higher strengths and weapon mastery to where Thrust shouldn't be considered. I want that closer balanced.

Varyon 10-22-2021 08:10 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400646)
This new post is less about bows vs melee and more about thrust vs swing. Swing is clearly better at strengths 13+ and only get better and better with higher strengths and weapon mastery to where Thrust shouldn't be considered. I want that closer balanced.

There's a few options there. One, as mentioned earlier in the thread, is to make the Weapon Master boost static rather than per-die - +2 to damage (full stop) at DX+1, +4 to damage (full stop) at DX+2 or higher. Another is to make swing be a static bonus compared to thrust - I believe Know Your Own Strength did this, with swing being consistently +2 compared to thrust.

Of course, that last bit is arguably a case where you aren't really making thrust better, you're just making swing worse. I can't remember the name of the story (EDIT: found it, it's "Harrison Bergeron," by Kurt Vonnegut) but I recall one where TPTB decided the best way to make everyone equal was to force people who were smarter than others to wear a headset that frequently played loud, sharp sounds to disrupt their thoughts, and people who were stronger and better-coordinated than others had to wear a weighted sack around their neck (or in extreme cases, manacles) to keep them from having an advantage. This is similar, "elevating" thrust-based weapons by just making all the better weapons worse. I think of this as the stick approach as opposed to the carrot approach - in this case, the latter would be to actually elevate thrust-based weapons. You may want to consider having the swing-based damage table be the same (+1 to damage for every +1 to ST), then have the thrust-based damage table simply be that at -2. I think Know Your Own Strength did something similar, although I don't recall if it based things on the current swing table or not.

DouglasCole 10-22-2021 09:40 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
For what it’s worth, I have played in several sessions where swing was thrust +2, using the standard dungeon fantasy role-playing game progression otherwise, and it was simply fantastic. The knock-on effects are surprisingly interesting. You don’t need as much damage resistance to be protected, martial artists become viable, and other factors where choice between thrust and swing is more equal. It really was a positive change in my experience.

Boge 10-22-2021 05:48 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
That works to a point, but with higher strength TH attacks outpace SW attacks.

Varyon 10-25-2021 10:29 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400752)
That works to a point, but with higher strength TH attacks outpace SW attacks.

Err... if sw is always thr+2, thr literally cannot overtake sw. Granted, with high enough ST that +2 ends up not making any appreciable difference - the difference between 10d (35 average) and 10d+2 (37 average), for example, is somewhere around 5%, which is small enough to be generally ignorable.

Now, there are weapons where thr damage gets enough of a bonus compared to sw damage that thr would end up outright more powerful. I think spears (which can be used like staves for sw damage) are in this category, as are perhaps katars and patas. This basically would just work out as there being fewer cases where you'd use such weapons for swings (typically, just for a different damage type - cr for spears, cut for katars), but such weapons aren't terribly swing-friendly to start with. Sw imp getting stuck may be worth a rethink in such a paradigm, however - currently that's something of a balancing factor* (imp has the highest wounding modifier, plus has some nice hit location options, so getting it with swing damage is a Big Deal), but that's not as necessary when sw is only thr+2 instead of roughly thrx2.

*There's also realism involved in it, but thrust impaling weapons - and even cutting weapons, just ask anyone who has chopped wood - realistically have a risk of getting stuck as well, and ignoring that doesn't really break immersion; doing the same for sw imp shouldn't either.

Boge 10-25-2021 03:04 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Because of the 1.5x cutting damage vs the 2x impaling damage, if you gain +1 TH and +1 SW each level, yeah, thrust damage does overtake swing damage.

But because you gain +1 Swing damage per level and only +1 Thrust every two levels, Swing overtakes Thrust, especially considering weapon master bonuses.

I understand the realism of swinging doing more damage than thrust. But at the end of the day, this is a game and needs better balancing with the damages, in my opinion.

Farmer 10-25-2021 03:25 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Armour divisors and access to increased damage multipliers for certain attack types/locations (and different armour types with varying resistances) can help to balance things out. You also have aspects of reach and the advantage that can bring, and when it can be used based on space/environment/etc. (thrust attacks at a longer reach might be less restricted, for example, or the readying of the weapon). You can set stop thrust against a charging attacker. Spikes on shields. The list goes on. I think it's more of an issue if you don't look at all the variables already available.

Boge 10-25-2021 06:29 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmer (Post 2401031)
Armour divisors and access to increased damage multipliers for certain attack types/locations (and different armour types with varying resistances) can help to balance things out. You also have aspects of reach and the advantage that can bring, and when it can be used based on space/environment/etc. (thrust attacks at a longer reach might be less restricted, for example, or the readying of the weapon). You can set stop thrust against a charging attacker. Spikes on shields. The list goes on. I think it's more of an issue if you don't look at all the variables already available.

Good points. Most of what you mentioned is available in game. We just rarely take it into consideration.

Varyon 10-26-2021 09:42 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2401023)
Because of the 1.5x cutting damage vs the 2x impaling damage, if you gain +1 TH and +1 SW each level, yeah, thrust damage does overtake swing damage.

That's not thrust damage overtaking swing, really, it's just that the typical Wounding Modifiers for imp (typically thr) and cut (typically sw) result in thrust tending to do more Injury than swing against unarmored/lightly-armored foes (although what counts as "lightly-armored" against you shifts depending on ST). At thr of 1d and sw=thr+2 (and equal bonuses to thr and sw from the sword), you're looking at 3.5->7 HP Injury vs 5.5->8.25 HP Injury against DR 0, 2.5->5 vs 4.5->6.75 against DR 1, etc, with sw cut "gaining" +0.5 HP Injury over thr imp for every point of DR in play. Against DR 0, thr imp Injury equals that of sw cut at thr=2d-1 (and overtakes it thereafter, at +0.5 HP Injury per +1 to damage)... against DR 0. Against DR 1, that instead happens at 2d, against DR 2 at 2d+1, and so forth.

And, of course, that's for hits to the Torso on a normal human (or animal). Against targets with Injury Tolerance: Unliving (like undead, machines, etc) or Homogenous (like golems, chests, etc), sw cut will always have the advantage. Similarly, limbs and extremities downgrade imp to a x1 WM (unless I'm conflating Imp with Pi+/++), while cut stays at x1.5, so when aiming for such targets sw cut is at an advantage. This is also the case (albeit to a lesser extent) if aiming at the Neck or Skull, where the WM is the same (x2) for each, so the +2 damage for sw cut makes it better. On the flip side, however, thr imp can target a few high-value hit locations that are off-limits to sw cut, like the Vitals and Eye.

Overall, I think the idea would work fairly well, particularly for DF or similar where dealing with foes with various Injury Tolerances, Vulnerabilities, etc is somewhat common. That said, of course, you're by no means required to make use of it - if you prefer that sw generally be around 2xthr (as it currently is), that's certainly workable as well. Per-die bonuses sound like they'll favor sw too much for your preferences in that case, so sticking with static ones will probably work out best for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2401023)
I understand the realism of swinging doing more damage than thrust. But at the end of the day, this is a game and needs better balancing with the damages, in my opinion.

One idea I like, which is potentially workable for the common thr imp vs sw cut, is to have the former deal less damage, but have better anti-armor performance and hit locations. I'd need to play with numbers to get something fair - ideally, you'd be looking at sw cut being better against unarmored/lightly-armored targets, but thr imp being better against more heavily armored targets (possibly with the option of taking a to-hit penalty to do Injury more on par with sw cut against the unarmored ones - note attacking the Vitals already accomplishes this to a certain extent). This may be accomplishable with simple armor divisors, making it easier to (partially) bypass armor with thr imp (which is sort-of already the case, although -8 to hit is pretty significant), judicious application of LT's edge protection rules, etc.

Boge 10-26-2021 12:35 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
We tried the "Knowing Your Own Strength" change before and the GM didn't like that one of our characters was punching for 2d+.


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