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-   -   Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=99840)

Dalren 11-11-2012 10:35 AM

Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Does the Rule of 16 use the modified or unmodified resistance value for a target? For example, if a character with Mind Control (Suggestion) has a score of 21 and the target's Will is only 15, but the suggested action gives the target a bonus for risking personal harm (+5), what score would the casting character use? Does the rule of 16 apply before or after the bonus from suggestion is figured? Would the caster being rolling against 20 (target's will plus bonus) or 16 (rule of 16)?

malloyd 11-11-2012 10:44 AM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
20. Caps (or minimums) go last in any computation unless they say otherwise pretty explicitly.

Anaraxes 11-11-2012 10:56 AM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Effective resistance (20). But apply the procedure in Extreme Scores (B349) to normalize the values before using the Rule of 16.

The point of the Rule of 16 is to avoid attackers that always succeed against weak targets. If you don't normalize first, then you sharply reduce the value of skills higher than 16, and overvalue defenses above 16 (which can never been exceeded if all you use is the Rule of 16).

So, treat 21 versus 20 as 11 versus 10 (21 - 10 versus 20 - 10, or, per RAW, 21 * (10/20) versus 10). Check the Rule of 16 on the reduced values; doesn't apply. Make the resistance roll; the attacker has an advantage of 1 point.

If the attack were, say, 22 versus 15, then you'd have 17 versus 10 after normalization, and the Rule of 16 would kick to change that to 16 versus 10.

Dalren 11-11-2012 11:05 AM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Is there a version of Deceptive Attack that can be used with Advantages?

Dinadon 11-11-2012 11:11 AM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes (Post 1474240)
Effective resistance (20). But apply the procedure in Extreme Scores (B349) to normalize the values before using the Rule of 16.

The point of the Rule of 16 is to avoid attackers that always succeed against weak targets. If you don't normalize first, then you sharply reduce the value of skills higher than 16, and overvalue defenses above 16 (which can never been exceeded if all you use is the Rule of 16).

So, treat 21 versus 20 as 11 versus 10 (21 - 10 versus 20 - 10, or, per RAW, 21 * (10/20) versus 10). Check the Rule of 16 on the reduced values; doesn't apply. Make the resistance roll; the attacker has an advantage of 1 point.

If the attack were, say, 22 versus 15, then you'd have 17 versus 10 after normalization, and the Rule of 16 would kick to change that to 16 versus 10.

Resistance Rolls are Quick-Contests, so Extreme Scores does not apply. Extreme Scores is for Regular Contests, where it can get boring for two highly capable (or highly incapable) opponents to constantly tie in a Regular Contest.

Still, that is an interesting thing to do.

Dinadon 11-11-2012 11:22 AM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalren (Post 1474243)
Is there a version of Deceptive Attack that can be used with Advantages?

You question doesn't make much sense. Deceptive Attack is an Attack Option, while an Advantage is something you buy. Deceptive Attack can be used with any melee attack, or with ranged attacks if you use the rules from Martial Arts. In either case it only affects Active Defences.

If you mean 'Is there a way to use Deceptive Attack on my resisted ability?', then I believe the answer is no. Generally if you want to beef up an advantage for a single attack you would use the Extra Effort rules from Powers.

Dalren 11-11-2012 12:12 PM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon (Post 1474246)
If you mean 'Is there a way to use Deceptive Attack on my resisted ability?', then I believe the answer is no. Generally if you want to beef up an advantage for a single attack you would use the Extra Effort rules from Powers.

This is indeed what I intended to ask. In this case, however, I don't believe Extra Effort is what I was hoping for. Rather, I'm looking to see if you can reduce your target's resistance by taking a penalty to your own roll. This would be handy for times when the Rule of 16 would make any score above a 16 useless anyway (after range penalties, etc). For example, if I have a resisted advantage that checks at 20 and my target only has a Will of 15, I would normally be limited to rolling against 16. I was looking to see if there was an option that would allow me to take a penalty to apply a penalty to my target's resistance roll. Perhaps -1 to resistance for every -2 I took on my check. If such a rule existed, I could take penalties down to 16 (can't check at anything greater due to Rule of 16 anyway) and the target would check against 13 instead of the full 15.

Anaraxes 11-11-2012 12:28 PM

Re: Rule of 16 and Bonuses/Penalties
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinadon (Post 1474244)
Resistance Rolls are Quick-Contests, so Extreme Scores does not apply

True, now that I go back and check.

So as long as I'm non-RAW, let me suggest a simple version, a "Rule of Five": the attacking effective skill for resistance purposes can't exceed the resistance by more than 5 points. The normalization business really doesn't do anything but shift down to the center point of the 3d6 roll, so you can do the math in one stage. Rule of 16 would really translate into a Rule of 6, and of course 16 is the max success roll... but then there's pentaphilia.


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