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AllenOwen 06-06-2020 03:44 PM

Ritual Magic
 
Does Ritual Magic (B242) increase the time to cast spells? I am under the impression it does not, but I want to be certain.

Refplace 06-06-2020 03:49 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Nope.
It does not and this sentence added because "nope" was too short to be posted.

AllenOwen 06-06-2020 04:18 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
And Ritual Magery is an advantage much like Magery, other than the name?

Refplace 06-06-2020 05:13 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenOwen (Post 2327272)
And Ritual Magery is an advantage much like Magery, other than the name?

Also yes. And distinct from Ritual Magery used in Ritual Path Magic. Unfortunately a few names are pretty close together and can confuse people.

whswhs 06-06-2020 05:25 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
(a) It depends on which system you use. For example, Path and Book Magic, in GURPS Thaumatology, has a base time for most rituals of between 15 and 60 minutes. That's not specified for other systems; for example, Ritual Magic that uses the standard spells in the Basic Set isn't stated to take any longer.

(b) However, my concept of a ritual is as a procedure that really ought to take minutes or hour, not as something you can dash off in a second or two. I wouldn't use the ritual magic rules for any thing quick, even if the rules allow me to do so.

Refplace 06-06-2020 06:13 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2327282)
(a) It depends on which system you use. For example, Path and Book Magic, in GURPS Thaumatology, has a base time for most rituals of between 15 and 60 minutes. That's not specified for other systems; for example, Ritual Magic that uses the standard spells in the Basic Set isn't stated to take any longer.

(b) However, my concept of a ritual is as a procedure that really ought to take minutes or hour, not as something you can dash off in a second or two. I wouldn't use the ritual magic rules for any thing quick, even if the rules allow me to do so.

A) The op is referring to Ritual Magic (B242) though. That is just a flexible version on regular GURPS Magic.
B) I feel the same, I see why they picked it as a name though Book/Path would have been better

dataweaver 06-06-2020 11:46 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Hindsight is 2020. If they had known when 4e was being published what we know now, I have no doubt that what 4e calls Ritual Magic would have been called Path Magic, and what Thaumatology calls Path/Book Magic would have been called Ritual Magic.

whswhs 06-07-2020 04:28 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2327291)
A) The op is referring to Ritual Magic (B242) though. That is just a flexible version on regular GURPS Magic.

Not necessarily. Ritual Magic is the base skill for Paths and Books; therefore they too are a form of Ritual Magic. And Path/Book magic had already been developed well before 4/e, first in GURPS Voodoo and then in GURPS Cabal. So I think its use in the Basic Set has to be understood partly as providing the option of republishing Path/Book magic.

Anders 06-07-2020 05:26 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
If you want longer casting time, you want Ceremonial Magic. And "Ceremonial Magic Only" is... somewhere. Thaumatology? It can be combined with Ritual Magic no problem.

Edit: Thaumatology p. 23.

Anaraxes 06-07-2020 07:20 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anders (Post 2327361)
And "Ceremonial Magic Only" is... Edit: Thaumatology p. 23.

That's the term used in Basic (B238) / Magic (M12) for group casting (involving a "ritual", though it's not "Ritual Magic"). Casting time is x10 in that case.

The Thaumatology reference isn't a different mechanic. It describes a Limitation on Magery that limits that mage to using only Ceremonial Magic (as defined on B238).

dataweaver 06-07-2020 07:22 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2327355)
Not necessarily. Ritual Magic is the base skill for Paths and Books; therefore they too are a form of Ritual Magic. And Path/Book magic had already been developed well before 4/e, first in GURPS Voodoo and then in GURPS Cabal. So I think its use in the Basic Set has to be understood partly as providing the option of republishing Path/Book magic.

GURPS Spirits, not GURPS Cabal. (Also, GURPS Old West and, in a radically different form, GURPS Castle Falkenstein.)

And I agree that the intent of 4e was to lay the groundwork for the return of 3e's Ritual Magic system. But as GURPS Thaumatology shows, that's not how it worked out. For better or worse, 4e uses Ritual Magic to refer to an alteration to the standard magic system's learning section, and the system that alters how Magic is cast to the Effect-Shaping Model or the Energy-Accumulation Model is now called Path/Book Magic.

Gef 06-07-2020 09:22 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenOwen (Post 2327267)
Does Ritual Magic (B242) increase the time to cast spells? I am under the impression it does not, but I want to be certain.

Sort of. Ritual Magic gives you access to path skills which in turn let you cast spells on the fly with horrendous penalties. While page B242 doesn't reference it, check out Symbol-Drawing skill on p. B224. It's the key to making Ritual Magic seem more ritualistic; it helps with those penalties; and it takes however long the GM says it does.

That said, Symbol-Drawing was originally introduced with 3rd edition's version of Ritual Magic, in GURPS Voodoo as I recall, which is now 4e's path magic, from GURPS Thaumatology Chapter 5 (and taken to its ultimate manifestation in this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=162430).

whswhs 06-08-2020 01:08 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2327381)
And I agree that the intent of 4e was to lay the groundwork for the return of 3e's Ritual Magic system. But as GURPS Thaumatology shows, that's not how it worked out. For better or worse, 4e uses Ritual Magic to refer to an alteration to the standard magic system's learning section, and the system that alters how Magic is cast to the Effect-Shaping Model or the Energy-Accumulation Model is now called Path/Book Magic.

It doesn't seem to me that I was denying that. What I said was

It depends on which system you use. For example, Path and Book Magic, in GURPS Thaumatology, has a base time for most rituals of between 15 and 60 minutes. That's not specified for other systems; for example, Ritual Magic that uses the standard spells in the Basic Set isn't stated to take any longer.

It is the case that Path and Book Magic normally uses Ritual Magic as its base skill; so it is clearly ONE case of "Ritual Magic."

Plane 06-08-2020 03:13 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes (Post 2327380)
That's the term used in Basic (B238) / Magic (M12) for group casting (involving a "ritual", though it's not "Ritual Magic"). Casting time is x10 in that case.

I always wondered how that would work for Recover Energy since it doesn't seem to have a casting time.

A big draw in Ceremonial Magic is the potential of pumping in energy to raise your effective skill with a spell, which could be really useful for low-IQ guys with just 1 point in Recover Energy to get up the required minimum 15 needed to benefit from it.

But with RE also lacking a base cost there's nothing to base a % on.

Which is why I like the idea of treating it like 1 to cast / 1 to maintain with the skill 15 reducing that to 0 under normal casting.

Ceremonial can't benefit from skill-based cost reductions so it would generally be undesirable unless it was something like having spectators power your RE for you. How efficient depends on what you declare the duration to be, which the GM would need to house rule if rewriting this to try and resemble other spells.

Casting time could normally just be 1 second (10 ceremonial) but maybe work like one of those "requires concentration" spells where the duration will end as soon as your concentration is broken?

TBH not exactly sure how interruption-threshold for the calm/rest required for Recover Energy is meant to work. Like I assume you can't cast other spells (that's not restful) when recovering energy, just like spellcasting would interfere with normal rest.

AlexanderHowl 06-08-2020 06:36 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Common misconception, but you have to 'know' (as in have a base skill) a spell at 15+ to cast it ceremonially. Energy for skill only increases effective skill, so it would not let a caster with a base skill 14- cast a spell ceremonially.

Prince Charon 06-09-2020 07:40 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2327659)
Common misconception, but you have to 'know' (as in have a base skill) a spell at 15+ to cast it ceremonially. Energy for skill only increases effective skill, so it would not let a caster with a base skill 14- cast a spell ceremonially.

By RAW you do, but if the GM decides when designing or modifying the setting that you don't need that, then you don't need that.

AlexanderHowl 06-09-2020 09:45 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Yes, but that applies to anything. A GM could also just have Recover Energy world at any skill level if they wanted.

Plane 06-09-2020 11:41 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2327659)
Common misconception, but you have to 'know' (as in have a base skill) a spell at 15+ to cast it ceremonially. Energy for skill only increases effective skill, so it would not let a caster with a base skill 14- cast a spell ceremonially.

*rechecks M12*

it's the very first sentence staring me in the face yet I somehow managed to overlook it when coming up with these convoluted theories about how guys w/ Enchant at lower skill levels could just forcefeed extra FP to get it to work....

It looks like I'd need some other kind of in, such as "Boost Intelligence" (M37) but I think that only lasts about a second so it wouldn't exactly help with something requiring at least 10 seconds to cast... at best it MIGHT help with a spell that took only 1 second to cast but even then I'm not sure...

I did have one interesting idea though...

Assuming it could help with a one-second spell, what if you cast it and then cast M135 "Wisdom"?

You can increase IQ up to 5 points that way. It has a "cannot be raised higher than caster's" limit which is where Boost IQ might come in handy since you could temporarily have a higher IQ so as to be able to have a higher cap on using Wisdom?

Unfortunately Wisdom's boost doesn't help with spells so you'd need some kind of modified version of the spell (cosmic enhancement?) to have that help out your cermonial magic.

In terms of base skill I guess there's only IQ/magery/skill points that matter? Do you know if the -5 for Low Mana would matter, ie you'd need to know it at 20 normally to do Ceremonial in Low Mana?

dataweaver 06-11-2020 11:54 AM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
I don't have my books handy. Does the “ceremonial only” limitation to Magery grant an exception to that rule? If it doesn't, it probably should.

Plane 06-11-2020 11:10 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver (Post 2328153)
I don't have my books handy. Does the “ceremonial only” limitation to Magery grant an exception to that rule? If it doesn't, it probably should.

T23 doesn't appear to mention it.

Nor does T24 for "Enchantment Only" magery

Plus it would be important for One College Only (Enchantment) too...

Enchantment MUST be ceremonial after all, which I think is why it has the skill 15 requirements too.

One thing Thauamtology does hint at is an optional rule where you would not need skill 15 to perform Ceremonial Magic anymore...

T109:
"If the GM wishes to make item manufacture especially common, at the cost of there being a lot of low-quality items, then he can relax the required minimum Power of 15"

That in essence means you don't need minimum skill in both enchantment skills of 15 anymore... or rather I see now at closer glance the top of the right column says exactly that:
This of course negates the usual rule requiring a minimum spell skill of 15 for ceremonial magic.
Maybe a perk for 'Rules Exemption' could be purchased by characters who want to ignore that limit?

It gives two guidelines:

"Less powerful items might only work in high mana"
"10 or less might require VERY high"
kinda loose, I think there is a more perfect way to implement this, actually...

T58 "continuous mana" breaks mana into smaller increments instead of fixed quanta. High is +3 to +7 (avg 5) so needing 3-7 bonus to make stuff ranging 11-14 to work, a simpler way would just be to use continuous mana and you just need whatever bonus brings power up to 15.

T60 has notes on how to rewrite mana booster/damper for Continuous Mana and it's gorgeous.

shawnhcorey 12-03-2020 05:08 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
If Ritual Magic takes considerably longer than standard magic, it would be a NPC only skill. What good is a skill that takes longer than most encounters be to an adventurer?

Refplace 12-03-2020 06:05 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Because there are a lot of situations outside combat where it can be useful. Gathering info and resources, travel, etc. Also charms or other 1 use magic items or triggered spell effects.

shawnhcorey 12-03-2020 06:18 PM

Re: Ritual Magic
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2356343)
Because there are a lot of situations outside combat where it can be useful. Gathering info and resources, travel, etc. Also charms or other 1 use magic items or triggered spell effects.

True but one can get these cheaper with advantages and skills. Eliminating the "combat" spells for the cost of Ritual Magic does not seems a good idea.


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