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hcobb 09-23-2018 11:53 AM

Misc. Spell questions
 
All page references to the recent Wizard Spell Reference Booklet.pdf unless noted.

Blur(p1) Is the wizard hindered in casting spells on himself under his own Blur spell, or one cast by an allied wizard on him?
Suggestion: A wizard suffers no DX penalties for vision for casting spells on himself or anyone he is holding onto.

Drop Weapon(p1) What is the effect on two-handed weapons?
Suggestion: Any one item held (not worn) by the target, with no mention of hands.

Magic Fist(p1) Given that the maximum possible MF is 3dice minus 12 you need to roll 18 in order to trip, correct?
Suggestion: If any one of the damage dice rolls a six before adjustments

Slow Movement(p1) Round up or down?
Suggestion: up

Staff(p1) "make any piece of wood" With no limitations to type or size? Mr. Treant, you seem to be holding yourself off the ground... And is there any range adjustment for casting this spell against a quarterstaff in somebody else's hands three megahexes away?
Suggestion: Any piece of wood held up in the wizard's hands.

Aid(p1) What happens to borrowed ST used to cast a spell after Aid wears off?
Suggestion: Spell casting and damage suffered is marked against ST gained from an Aid spell first.

Avert(p1) What are the effects of a wizard Averting himself, other than immunity to hostile Averts?
Suggestion: No effect.

Reveal Magic(p2) Any range limits? What if the wizard is looking through a telescope at the moon?
Suggestion: five megahexes, within line of sight.

Control Animal(p2) Any additional cost to control a multi-hex animal like a T-Rex?
Suggestion: Only if its brain is bigger than one hex.

Sleep(p3) Do hits from fire count? What about hits that don't penetrate armor?
Suggestion: Any damage.

Mage Sight(p4) Are the subjects merely seen, or are all visual DX adjustments negated?
Suggestion: Seen as if the wizard had normal eyesight and the effect was not present.

Slippery Floor(p4) Can only be cast on Megahex aligned boundaries?

Stone Flesh(p5) Everybody within line of sight knows how much actual damage each attack does to any target or is there an implied visual effect of Stone Flesh absorbing damage?

Stop(p5) prevents Teleport?
Suggestion: No.

Is Lightning(p5) the only attack that can destroy created walls? You can't wack it with your staff? Do the five hits have to be delivered in a single blast or can you chip away?
Suggestion: Only missile spells.

Wizard casts Remove Thrown Spell(p5) on himself (at no range adjustment) to negate the Megahex Avert he's suffering under and everybody else is also freed? Also the effect of the Sleep spell is instant so Remove Thrown Spell can't wake anybody up, right?

Skarg 09-23-2018 01:33 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Many of these are really good and/or interesting questions that point to undefined parts of TFT - cool!

I'll answer the ones I think have well-established answers:

Drop weapon causes a weapon or shield to drop, regardless of how many hands are holding it.

Magic fist max damage is 3d-6, not 3d-12, so no.

When an Aid (ST) spell wears off, the subject loses that ST. Fatigue used during the 2 turns while the Aid spell was in effect can be counted against the Aid spell, and the fatigue vanishes with the Aid spell. The original Advanced Wizard calls this out as the main way wizards can cast spells with huge ST costs. But Aid spells do not "heal fatigue" on a wizard who already had fatigue before the Aid spell. And (less clearly spelled out, so IMO) it shouldn't let you heal wounds either, even if they were suffered during the Aid spell.

I'm not sure where you get the idea of casting Avert on yourself and that making you immune to hostile Averts. I would say that Avert can't be cast on yourself, though I don't mind your idea as a clever trick.

Reveal Magic has a range of 5 Megahexes in original Advanced Wizard.

Control Animal - no limits mentioned except the IQ saving roll.

In Advanced Wizard, sleepers awake when hit (regardless of damage) or naturally. I'd say fire counts as a hit, but it's a good question.

Mage Sight - what you suggested.

Slippery Floor is cast on the center hex of the affected area, which can be any hex - the rules do say this.

Knowing how much damage people take is up to the players. In a competitive game, you tell your opponent when they hit you and Stone Flesh prevents you from taking damage. In a GM'd game, the GM would rule how clear it is what is happening, and generally would not tell players exactly how much damage everyone is actually taking, nor what the opponents' stats are.

Stop doesn't prevent Teleport - it just lowers MA to zero.

Lightning is the only damage that's especially effective against a magically created Wall. Whether damage has to be in one blast or not was never specified.

The Remove Thrown Spell question is interesting and could have various answers. I tend to think it just removes the effect from one person at a time, but I think it's good to have it able to wake someone asleep from a Sleep spell.

hcobb 09-23-2018 03:27 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2210917)
I'm not sure where you get the idea of casting Avert on yourself and that making you immune to hostile Averts. I would say that Avert can't be cast on yourself, though I don't mind your idea as a clever trick.

Are all Thrown Spells under the unstackable limitation? How about Aid? What happens if you're under two hostile Averts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizards rulebook p13
Only one Blur, one Dazzle, one Stone Flesh, one Shock Shield, etc., can be cast on any given figure at a time. These spells are not cumulative.

And what happens when a wizard casts a range zero Megahex Avert to get all the people in his face to just back off?

---- Adding:

My suggestion is to generalize Add not multiply to: The continuing effect (other than damage) of any spell is replaced when a figure comes under the effect of a second casting of exactly the same type of spell with the following exceptions and modifications:

Blur, Dazzle, Shadow, Invisibility and all other vision impairments operate independently, but only the worst modifier applies.

Any number of Slow Movement and Speed Movement can be cast on the same figure add the total duration of each type together and while a figure is under the effect of both types their movement is normal until one of the effects wears off.

Any number of Aid spells can take effect on the same figure at the same time, but only the highest current level of each of Clumsiness and Confusion applies.

One multi-hex non-living creation such as shadow, fire or wall can cut through another. Shadow hides whatever is inside it while wall puts out fire. (Only matters if the wall is itself destroyed later.)

Any number of Rope spells operate independently against a figure.

Stone Flesh and Iron Flesh each cancel the previous spell out on the same figure.

Skarg 09-23-2018 04:27 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2210939)
Are all Thrown Spells under the unstackable limitation? How about Aid? What happens if you're under two hostile Averts?

It depends on the nature of the spell, I think, not that it's a Thrown spell.

That is, I don't think it's necessarily that you (and/or others) can't cast the same spell on someone more than once - the issue is that some spells have an effect which, once achieved, isn't really changed by having it cast more than once. But it would give the subject two sources for that effect. It seems to me there's an understandable logical principle which can be applied to most spells. e.g.:

If you're blurred, another blur spell doesn't make the effect of being blurred any greater.

If you're already dazzled, more dazzle doesn't increase what being dazzled means.

If you already have stone flesh, another stone flesh doesn't create a new Uber Stone Flesh effect - you just have another thing causing you to have normal stone flesh.

Shock Shield might logically be thought to be something you could stack, so it's nice that's called out. It would of course be super-deadly. Though, you can have multiple people and cast shock shield on each of them and have them jump in the same HTH combat hex - but they'll shock each other too.

However I'm confident that Aid is intended to be fully stackable (although Aid can be extremely powerful once players think about it enough).

Two hostile Avert spells is an interesting question which I think got a Q&A back in the day, the upshot of which was the subject needs to do its best to try to fulfill the requirements of all Avert spells, and it can't move closer to any of the casters who have an Avert on it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2210939)
And what happens when a wizard casts a range zero Megahex Avert to get all the people in his face to just back off?

Yes. It's like you cast Avert on each of them, but just have one spell to maintain.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2210939)
My suggestion is to generalize Add not multiply to: The continuing effect (other than damage) of any spell is replaced when a figure comes under the effect of a second casting of exactly the same type of spell with the following exceptions and modifications:

Blur, Dazzle, Shadow, Invisibility and all other vision impairments operate independently, but only the worst modifier applies.

Any number of Slow Movement and Speed Movement can be cast on the same figure add the total duration of each type together and while a figure is under the effect of both types their movement is normal until one of the effects wears off.

Any number of Aid spells can take effect on the same figure at the same time, but only the highest current level of each of Clumsiness and Confusion applies.

One multi-hex non-living creation such as shadow, fire or wall can cut through another. Shadow hides whatever is inside it while wall puts out fire. (Only matters if the wall is itself destroyed later.)

Any number of Rope spells operate independently against a figure.

Stone Flesh and Iron Flesh each cancel the previous spell out on the same figure.

That mostly sounds exactly as intended, except:

* The Clumsiness/Confusion I think is supposed to stack, but I think those powerful spells would be well to have that limit, and I'd like to be wrong.

* I think each Stone Flesh or Iron Flesh spell doesn't cancel anything, but instead they all can co-exist but only the strongest one has an effect. However it's interesting if you could reduce someone's Iron Flesh protection by casting Stone Flesh on them... if so, it'd almost make you want "Padded Flesh" or "Normal Flesh"... though you'd tend to do better with Remove Thrown Spell.

One I was wondering about reading the new Wizard was if it said you could cast Slippery Floor on your own hex and specify not your own hex, or not. Seems to me you could always opt out of some hexes the way we played, but I don't see that mentioned in the new Wizard. (Maybe that's just a GURPS Magic thing?)

Helborn 09-23-2018 05:03 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2210902)
All page references to the recent Wizard Spell Reference Booklet.pdf unless noted.

Magic Fist(p1) Given that the maximum possible MF is 3dice minus 12 you need to roll 18 in order to trip, correct?
Suggestion: If any one of the damage dice rolls a six before adjustments

I'm sorry but where does it say that 3ST is MAX dmg for Magic Fist? Here is the section from the Wizard Spell reference:

Magic Fist (M): A telekinetic blow. Does 1d-2 damage for every ST point used to cast it but never less damage than the ST used. Can also trigger traps or carry out other unsubtle manipulations within line of sight. A Magic Fist that does 6 or more hits before armor/shield protection will also trip its target, making him/her fall down, unless he/she makes a 3-die roll on ST or DX, whichever is higher. See the Trip spell.

You can put as many ST into MF as you want, rolling a number of die equal to the ST put in and subtracting 2 from each die with a minimum of 1 pt dmg per die (new rules)

Skarg 09-23-2018 05:36 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2210966)
I'm sorry but where does it say that 3ST is MAX dmg for Magic Fist? Here is the section from the Wizard Spell reference:

For better or worse, it says it in the new section of Missile spells, in the Wizard rules on page 12:
Quote:

There are three missile spells: Magic Fist, Fireball, and Lightning. To cast one of these spells, the wizard announces (1) its target, and (2) the amount of ST (maximum 3) he is using for the spell.

Helborn 09-24-2018 05:36 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Thanks Skarg, completely missed that and Steve reiterated that limitation yesterday. THAT changes a LOT of tactics and strategy

Skarg 09-24-2018 11:17 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Yes, with pole charges reduced too, two of the main "how to do lots of damage" methods have been pruned to about 3d.

Axly Suregrip 09-24-2018 12:20 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
A question about Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells. These differ from rolling a 17 and 18 in that the target does not loose an action. But shouldn't he?

For example, a fighter is about to strike a wizard. The wizard with a higher DX uses his action to cast Drop Weapon. Now during the same turn, the fighter uses his action to pick up the dropped weapon. By end of turn, they are exactly where they started off. For the ST fatigue all the wizard did was buy one turn delay in getting hit.

On the other hand, no spell is cast, and if the fighter happened to roll a 17 not only has he dropped his weapon, he consumed his action that turn doing so. Next turn he will need to pick it up (not this turn).

So, I am suggesting that Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells not only have the stated affect, but also cause the target to loose his next combat action.

Just checking to see if anyone agrees with this or is it going to far.

-kind regards
-Alan

Skarg 09-24-2018 01:00 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip (Post 2211114)
A question about Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells. These differ from rolling a 17 and 18 in that the target does not loose an action. But shouldn't he?

For example, a fighter is about to strike a wizard. The wizard with a higher DX uses his action to cast Drop Weapon. Now during the same turn, the fighter uses his action to pick up the dropped weapon. By end of turn, they are exactly where they started off. For the ST fatigue all the wizard did was buy one turn delay in getting hit.

On the other hand, no spell is cast, and if the fighter happened to roll a 17 not only has he dropped his weapon, he consumed his action that turn doing so. Next turn he will need to pick it up (not this turn).

So, I am suggesting that Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells not only have the stated affect, but also cause the target to loose his next combat action.

Just checking to see if anyone agrees with this or is it going to far.

Those spells are not supposed to make the target use an action as well. If you'd like them to, then as GM (or with your opponent's agreement) you could have a variant of the spell that does do that, though consider it will tend to only impact people of lower adjDX than the caster. I might suggest a 3/IQ save or be distracted/confused by the interference into losing your action.

I agree that Drop Weapon isn't very effective at saving you from an adjacent warrior if the target hasn't acted yet and just picks it up. It's odd/interesting that if you are slower or wait for them to act (not good if you want to avoid them killing you...), they would end up unarmed during movement (your GM might let you disengage or at least only get bunched if you ignored engagement) and have to take the next turn to pick up the weapon. For an engaged person, at least that option is only allowed if the figure didn't move at all that turn.

Another fix could be to have Drop Weapon send the weapon away at least one hex (maybe 1d or 1d/2 hexes) in a random direction. That'd prevent an engaged victim from using an unused action to immediately pick it back up.

Axly Suregrip 09-24-2018 03:31 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Skarg, this point you made is a tactical gem:
"For an engaged person, at least that option is only allowed if the figure didn't move at all that turn."

Adv Melee states they may shift if engaged. Or if not engaged move up to 2 hexes. So, if someone moves to engage you, and moved more than 2 hexes distant, making them drop their weapon means they cannot pick it up that turn.

Having tactical windows of most effective time to cast a spell makes for fun game play.

I like this. Thanks.
-Alan

Chris Goodwin 09-25-2018 08:46 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Aid: Interesting bit, if damage does in fact come out of Aided ST... just before being hit, Aid yourself. It's a guessing game as to how much, but you essentially turn physical damage received during that time into fatigue/exhaustion, which recovers with rest at 1 per 15 minutes.

If all ST loss comes out of Aided ST, then: lets say you're a wizard with 9 ST. Turn 1 you Aid yourself for 8 ST. Turn 3 you Aid yourself for 8 ST minus however much damage you suffered or used in the meantime. And so on, until the fight is over. At that point, stop Aiding yourself, and when it finishes wearing off you're at 1 ST.

Even better if you have a source of ST already, say, via Staff II. Or Drain Strength, which will heal you of fatigue/exhaustion...

Chris Goodwin 09-25-2018 09:17 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Turn 2, I use Drain Strength on my pet bear (Wizard, p. 23). I drain him for 25 of his 30 ST, which heals me for 5 fatigue/exhaustion. I tell my bear to hide somewhere safe until it's over. Every other turn I keep "chain Aiding" myself. I can even draw from that extra 5 if I want, but better to leave it as a cushion.

Edit: Oops, Drain Strength is humans/humanoids only. Nice try though.

hcobb 09-25-2018 09:53 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
ITL pg 20, does Clearheadedness work against magical confusion? And what is the duration against a disease or poison?

What is the interaction between Dispel Missiles and rolling the miss the subject?

ITL pg 26 "When any figure enters the slippery area, the player who cast the spell reveals it." I.e. everybody then knows what the other six hexes are?

ITL pg 30, does Unnoticeability stack with Conceal? Does Reveal work against it?

Does staff mana apply to Death Spell?

Skarg 09-26-2018 12:21 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Chris, yes, clever...

To my mind, anyway, those are all extra reasons to not let Aid ST convert injury into fatigue like that.

We always played that Aid ST would at best keep someone alive who'd otherwise be dead, for two turns - it increases your ST, but doesn't heal nor soak any wounds at all. So it's of pretty limited use, but could be used to buy time to drink a healing potion or cast a final spell or do or say something else useful.

The new death rules in the new ITL make it even less useful for that, since it's now allowed to physick and pour healing potions into recently-dead people to recover them before really dead.

hcobb:

* Good question about Clearheadedness - I also wonder if it covers DX loss due to injury?

* I don't know what you mean by "rolling the miss the subject" (typo?).

* Invisible floor spells which cover a megahex affect the megahex around the target hex, which is secret and does not have to correspond to the megahexes drawn on the map. So no people don't know which adjacent hexes are also slippery

* IIRC Conceal is for static objects and Unnoticeability is for animate figures, so they would never have the same subject, although a Concealed object could be on an Unnoticeable figure, in which case I'd say observers need to notice the figure before they could notice the Concealed object on the figure.

* Dang I hope staff mana doesn't apply to the Death Spell! I would say no.

hcobb 09-26-2018 06:19 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
If I may ask the question slightly differently.

ITL p 20 Dispel Missiles "aimed at the spell’s subject"

So this spell offers no protection against accidental hits from missiles that weren't intended to hit the subject, correct?

hcobb 09-26-2018 06:37 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Are ITL pg 20 Summon Scout and ITL pg 21 Staff to Snake "real animals" for the purposes of ITL pg 21 Control Animal and ITL pg 28 Telepathy (T)?

If you control a wizard's staff like this, can you make it explode, or lie to him?

Chris Goodwin 09-26-2018 11:21 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2211510)
Chris, yes, clever...

To my mind, anyway, those are all extra reasons to not let Aid ST convert injury into fatigue like that.

We always played that Aid ST would at best keep someone alive who'd otherwise be dead, for two turns - it increases your ST, but doesn't heal nor soak any wounds at all. So it's of pretty limited use, but could be used to buy time to drink a healing potion or cast a final spell or do or say something else useful.

Fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) this is all dependent on a 3/DX roll.

But the point of Aided ST is to be able to be used as ST. It's most commonly used to funnel a lot of ST into one caster so that they can cast a spell requiring more ST than one person typically has, but it's for sure additional ST. Someone aided to 100 ST over their base ST can cast a spell costing 100 ST, and it comes out of the aided ST; why not the same for wounds? (If you want to, as a GM you can specify that this only works when Aided ST is above the figure's natural ST value, but even so it still works as a buff for fighters...)

Quote:

The new death rules in the new ITL make it even less useful for that, since it's now allowed to physick and pour healing potions into recently-dead people to recover them before really dead.
For the most part, those are straight out of original Advanced Melee. They've been modified slightly, and adding physicking is definitely new (but also seems to have been a common house rule). New ITL also makes a distinction between "mostly dead" and "dead dead" (below -5 ST) and limits the less effective methods to the "mostly dead" state.

hcobb 09-26-2018 04:05 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
20d fireballs only come from Rods (ITL p163) and not direct castings (ITL p135), correct?

Skarg 09-26-2018 04:17 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Hcobb, you are good at spell questions! You're probably a fun person to have playing wizards!


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2211537)
If I may ask the question slightly differently.

ITL p 20 Dispel Missiles "aimed at the spell’s subject"

So this spell offers no protection against accidental hits from missiles that weren't intended to hit the subject, correct?

Good technical wording question, and interesting to rule that way, but I would assume that is not the actual intention of the spell. Probably worth an errata to clarify that!


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2211542)
Are ITL pg 20 Summon Scout and ITL pg 21 Staff to Snake "real animals" for the purposes of ITL pg 21 Control Animal and ITL pg 28 Telepathy (T)?

If you control a wizard's staff like this, can you make it explode, or lie to him?

I think Summon Scout you can definitely control with Control Animal like any other summoned animal, in which case though you've just got yourself a summoned scout, and the original summoner just loses contact with it.

I don't see any indication that a Staff To Snake snake is anything other than an animal, except for its "occult damage" and dual existence as a staff. So I think you could Control Animal it. In theory you could use Telepathy on it. Though Telepathy requires touch, I do not think snakes explode or do "pick up" damage unless/until they turn back into a staff. Also that snake probably knows even less than a natural snake, since it just came into existence for the spell. "Suddenly I was here, and I was compelled to slither over there and zap someone with this occult attack I can somehow do. Then you grabbed me. Hi."

I imagine a similar sort of conversation if you use Telepathy to interrogate someone's Summon Scout rat, except it would probably know where it came from so you might be able to figure out what it means and find the general way back to where it was summoned.

Skarg 09-26-2018 04:32 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin (Post 2211587)
Fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) this is all dependent on a 3/DX roll.

But the point of Aided ST is to be able to be used as ST. It's most commonly used to funnel a lot of ST into one caster so that they can cast a spell requiring more ST than one person typically has, but it's for sure additional ST. Someone aided to 100 ST over their base ST can cast a spell costing 100 ST, and it comes out of the aided ST; why not the same for wounds? (If you want to, as a GM you can specify that this only works when Aided ST is above the figure's natural ST value, but even so it still works as a buff for fighters...)

To me, the answer is clearly because it makes no sense to me and breaks my understanding of the game world, and feels gamey.

It seems to me like drawing energy from a magic Aid spell to power a magic spell makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that if you're injured while aided, that the injury would go away when the Aid wears off. I see the ST from Aid as helping the victim handle injury to 2 turns, but not that it makes injury that's done go away.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin (Post 2211587)
For the most part, those are straight out of original Advanced Melee. They've been modified slightly, and adding physicking is definitely new (but also seems to have been a common house rule). New ITL also makes a distinction between "mostly dead" and "dead dead" (below -5 ST) and limits the less effective methods to the "mostly dead" state.

Seems to me people in original Advanced Melee died the moment they hit 0 ST, no?

So now the use of original physicker talents and healing potions can save someone if they can get him/her back to 0 ST right away. I like that as the margin is still quite narrow (unless you have a lot of expensive healing potion handy) but nicely wider than the single ST point it was before.

Where's the part about below -5 ST?

Chris Goodwin 09-26-2018 05:08 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2211675)
Seems to me people in original Advanced Melee died the moment they hit 0 ST, no?

Correct, AM p. 22. But...

Quote:

So now the use of original physicker talents and healing potions can save someone if they can get him/her back to 0 ST right away. I like that as the margin is still quite narrow (unless you have a lot of expensive healing potion handy) but nicely wider than the single ST point it was before.

Where's the part about below -5 ST?
-5 ST is in new ITL, p. 10, under "Heroic Magic Revival". Aside from the -5 ST, all of the conditions under that paragraph were the same as those in for death in general in AM p. 22, with the exception of Universal Antidote for poison. Greater Wish is specified in new ITL, where "wish" is specified in AM. New ITL specifies that a Freeze spell will stop the clock for as long as it's in effect, though that lasts for 2 to 12 turns. Presumably a self-powered Freeze magic item would keep it stopped.

New ITL p. 10 allows "Immediate Action" for figures that are "just barely dead", which by inference is at ST -4 or greater, assuming you can get to them immediately after the combat is over. Longer than that, up to an hour, is under "Heroic Magic Revival". Universal Antidote is under Immediate Action in new ITL

I would presume that using Aid to add ST would fall under "Immediate Action", and you'd need to add enough to get them to 0 ST; doing so would merely reset that clock. I would also presume that a magic item that adds ST would be enough, if it would get them to 0 or greater. Per Rule of 5, one of these items can only add a maximum of +5 ST, which interestingly meshes with -5 or below being under Heroic Magic Revival.

To summarize:

AM: 0 ST or below; Wish (unspecified), Revival spell, Revival potion, Universal Antidote (for poison). Requires within one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

New ITL, Immediate Action: -1 to -4 ST; first aid (Physicker or Master Physicker), Healing Potion, Universal Antidote (for potion or poison), must be "immediate" (i.e. as soon as possible after combat ends; GM has leeway, I'd rule up to 2-3 minutes, depending on circumstances). Explicitly, any or all of these can be combined. No ill effects after.

New ITL, Heroic Magic Revival: -5 ST or below; Greater Wish, Revival spell, Revival potion. Any time after "Immediate Action" has expired, up to one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying. If and only if, some of that damage is the result of fatigue or exhaustion, then Drain Strength (from the caster or a volunteer -- same in AW and new ITL) could be used to heal it back, and if doing so were enough to bring them to 0 ST or higher I'd rule that they'd make it. This would fall under Immediate Action in new ITL, and probably wouldn't work for Heroic Magic Revival nor at all in old TFT.

Helborn 09-26-2018 05:25 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
[QUOTE=Chris Goodwin
Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying.[/QUOTE]

Small correction. This is only true for lethal damage coming after non-lethal damage. You cannot drop below 0 ST by casting a spell or from subdual damage.

Chris Goodwin 09-26-2018 05:50 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2211689)
Small correction. This is only true for lethal damage coming after non-lethal damage. You cannot drop below 0 ST by casting a spell or from subdual damage.

Where is subdual damage explained?

Chris Goodwin 09-26-2018 06:17 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
N.B. If you're relying on a demon granting you a wish in order to raise a recently deceased comrade... demons don't just hand out wishes like Halloween candy. You need to either beat it in a fight or bargain with it (edit: this is incorrect per the rules, but if you fail the contest of wills you're in for a fight anyway...). If you're summoning a demon in order to raise a recently deceased comrade, you were probably in whatever fight they were in, so you're probably not in any condition to fight the demon. That leaves bargaining, and whatever bargain you strike will surely affect the raised character.

Helborn 09-27-2018 12:13 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Subdual damage is ITL pg 126 under Taking Prisoners.

Skarg 09-27-2018 01:32 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin (Post 2211683)
-5 ST is in new ITL, p. 10, under "Heroic Magic Revival". Aside from the -5 ST, all of the conditions under that paragraph were the same as those in for death in general in AM p. 22, with the exception of Universal Antidote for poison. Greater Wish is specified in new ITL, where "wish" is specified in AM. New ITL specifies that a Freeze spell will stop the clock for as long as it's in effect, though that lasts for 2 to 12 turns. Presumably a self-powered Freeze magic item would keep it stopped.

New ITL p. 10 allows "Immediate Action" for figures that are "just barely dead", which by inference is at ST -4 or greater, assuming you can get to them immediately after the combat is over. Longer than that, up to an hour, is under "Heroic Magic Revival". Universal Antidote is under Immediate Action in new ITL

I would presume that using Aid to add ST would fall under "Immediate Action", and you'd need to add enough to get them to 0 ST; doing so would merely reset that clock. I would also presume that a magic item that adds ST would be enough, if it would get them to 0 or greater. Per Rule of 5, one of these items can only add a maximum of +5 ST, which interestingly meshes with -5 or below being under Heroic Magic Revival.

To summarize:

AM: 0 ST or below; Wish (unspecified), Revival spell, Revival potion, Universal Antidote (for poison). Requires within one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

New ITL, Immediate Action: -1 to -4 ST; first aid (Physicker or Master Physicker), Healing Potion, Universal Antidote (for potion or poison), must be "immediate" (i.e. as soon as possible after combat ends; GM has leeway, I'd rule up to 2-3 minutes, depending on circumstances). Explicitly, any or all of these can be combined. No ill effects after.

New ITL, Heroic Magic Revival: -5 ST or below; Greater Wish, Revival spell, Revival potion. Any time after "Immediate Action" has expired, up to one hour. Loss of 5 attribute points.

Oh, side note: neither original nor new TFT made any distinction between nonlethal and lethal damage; if you're reduced to death by any combination, you're dying. If and only if, some of that damage is the result of fatigue or exhaustion, then Drain Strength (from the caster or a volunteer -- same in AW and new ITL) could be used to heal it back, and if doing so were enough to bring them to 0 ST or higher I'd rule that they'd make it. This would fall under Immediate Action in new ITL, and probably wouldn't work for Heroic Magic Revival nor at all in old TFT.

Yes, this is an awesome summary condensation of the rules, and matches my readings exactly. I'd want this (as you just wrote it under "to summarize" above, that I bolded) on my GM screen or quick notes!

Comments:

* A combination of Aid & Freeze spells look like they could keep someone fresh enough to buy a bit more time to at least for a while to go get more help or a healing potion or something in some cases - I can see that leading to some tense lifesaving efforts.

* The Freeze enchantment description shows that even without being self-powered, it is (by virtue of flavor description) an item that when worn, freezes someone indefinitely, so can now be used as a cryo healing device for people who are only at -4 or less.

* I'd also rule that the Aid spell can be used like you suggest Drain ST can, to do immediate action on the fatigue portion of someone's damage. I would even allow this on people whose fatigue (not wounds) brings them to -5 or lower. (I would probably house rule that fatigue doesn't kill in any case, but if I were not house ruling that, I'd at least let Aid work this way.)

Helborn 09-27-2018 10:11 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2211874)
* I'd also rule that the Aid spell can be used like you suggest Drain ST can, to do immediate action on the fatigue portion of someone's damage. I would even allow this on people whose fatigue (not wounds) brings them to -5 or lower. (I would probably house rule that fatigue doesn't kill in any case, but if I were not house ruling that, I'd at least let Aid work this way.)

keep in mind that the ST gain from Aid only lasts 2 turns. After that it goes back down. I don't think that it will be very effective.

Skarg 09-28-2018 01:43 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2211995)
keep in mind that the ST gain from Aid only lasts 2 turns. After that it goes back down. I don't think that it will be very effective.

Oh wait, you're right. Aid would only be helpful for one of those desperate attempts to reset the clock on the immediate action deadline. I guess if you could keep someone barely alive for 15 minutes, they could also rest off one of their fatigue. If they were at -1 ST partly from fatigue, that could save their life. :-)

Helborn 09-28-2018 07:51 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
The description of the Soothe Spell (ITL pg 25) states:

Soothe (T): Calms an upset person or animal. Especially useful for crying babies! Of course, if there is a reason for the baby to cry, it will start again soon. This spell does not change a diaper, though a properly cast Cleaning would. Cast on an animal, Soothe reduces by one die the difficulty of an Animal Handler attempt. Cost: 1 ST.

Question: There is no Cleaning Spell (I think there should be) and Cleansing does not make sense (you want to kill the baby? poop without germs is still dirty....) so .....?

Chris Goodwin 09-28-2018 11:01 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2212045)
The description of the Soothe Spell (ITL pg 25) states:

Soothe (T): Calms an upset person or animal. Especially useful for crying babies! Of course, if there is a reason for the baby to cry, it will start again soon. This spell does not change a diaper, though a properly cast Cleaning would. Cast on an animal, Soothe reduces by one die the difficulty of an Animal Handler attempt. Cost: 1 ST.

Question: There is no Cleaning Spell (I think there should be) and Cleansing does not make sense (you want to kill the baby? poop without germs is still dirty....) so .....?

This might be a good submission on the PDF Errata thread.

For discussion purposes... I'd say maybe the Look Your Best spell would clean the poo, and maybe that's what was intended? The Cleansing spell would work on the diaper for sure.

Most Physickers and above (including Vets) would know not to use Cleansing on a living being. Those in areas where the germ theory is known would know why, and they'd probably know a spell called Easy Cure, which is the Ferment spell under another name, and would be the one they use on living creatures, to cleanse wounds and "ease the digestion" among other things. They would use Cleansing on their instruments and operating fields, and I'd probably rule that if they're using Cleansing that their effectiveness is doubled (up to 4 ST for a Physicker or 6 for a Master Physicker; maybe assign a dice value instead, like 1d-2 minimum 2 for a Physicker, 1d-1 minimum 3 for a Master).

On general healing and recovery of fatigue ST: between Drain Strength, and recovery of Powerstones (ST batteries in original TFT) and Staff II mana, there's a general exchange rate of 5 ST to recover 1. Drain Strength specifies that you can use it to drain from and to third parties, so I'd say that would be the one to use to "heal" a person's lost fatigue, using the caster himself or a volunteer as the source.

hcobb 09-29-2018 06:48 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
ITL p.27 "A Glamor does not give the disguised creature any of the abilities of his
disguise, and cannot make him appear to be more than twice his actual size."

But there is no limit on decrease in size? Can a wizard glamor himself into looking like a floating dust mote?

JohnPaulB 10-02-2018 04:17 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions - Glamor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2212537)
ITL p.27 "A Glamor does not give the disguised creature any of the abilities of his
disguise, and cannot make him appear to be more than twice his actual size."

But there is no limit on decrease in size? Can a wizard glamor himself into looking like a floating dust mote?

Well, if he can't be more than twice his actual size, then I would say he also can't be less than half his actual size.

And here are more Glamor questions:
It says “to make him appear as other than what he is”. Does this mean that its strictly visual? What about smell, sound, etc.

Is it strictly the naked body that appears different?

What about clothing? If it does clothing also, then when the “giant” shirt is taken off, does it permanently remain a “giant” shirt or does it revert?

If the human is Glamored to be a Giant, is he still his same height but with a virtual image that goes 4 feet higher than he is?

If the glamored human (whose height is 5 feet) goes through a door that is 7 feet tall, does the virtual giant top (which is 10 feet tall) go through the frame above the door, does the glamor make it appear that the Giant bends low to go through or does the glamored human “bang” his head as he goes through the door?

Can you glamor your girlfriend to look like a particular pin-up girl?

hcobb 10-04-2018 11:18 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
And now for some talent questions (that are actually kinda spell questions...)

Quick-Draw (magic staff of suitable shape, say a wand) Are high level staffs immune to critical failures on quick-draw also?

Sex Appeal Is this a one-turn action that the Aid spell might help with? What if the wizard is using his own ST to boost his ST for this roll?

Missile Weapons (Magic Fist) allowable?

Poet Can this be used to write scrolls whose true effect is harder to discern?

Two Weapons How does the attack action of low-level magical staffs interact with this skill?

Weapon Expertise(Club) does this exist even though there is no Club skill?

Writing Any help with writing spellbooks or scrolls?

Weapon Mastery(Club) doable?

Skarg 10-04-2018 11:37 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions - Glamor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB (Post 2213419)
Well, if he can't be more than twice his actual size, then I would say he also can't be less than half his actual size.

And here are more Glamor questions:
It says “to make him appear as other than what he is”. Does this mean that its strictly visual? What about smell, sound, etc.

Is it strictly the naked body that appears different?

What about clothing? If it does clothing also, then when the “giant” shirt is taken off, does it permanently remain a “giant” shirt or does it revert?

If the human is Glamored to be a Giant, is he still his same height but with a virtual image that goes 4 feet higher than he is?

If the glamored human (whose height is 5 feet) goes through a door that is 7 feet tall, does the virtual giant top (which is 10 feet tall) go through the frame above the door, does the glamor make it appear that the Giant bends low to go through or does the glamored human “bang” his head as he goes through the door?

Can you glamor your girlfriend to look like a particular pin-up girl?

These are good questions that have always been up to the GM to figure out how exactly Glamour works and where the limits are, in the face of something that's inconsistent. How much is visual and how much is in the minds of the beholders, and how much inconsistency can happen before either

1) it has actual effects since the real person isn't what he looks like
or
2) observers see/hear something that makes will look/sound wrong or make no sense to them.

There are numerous such issues and a wide range of possible setting for them, ranging from many powers of deception that come built in and the minds of viewers go along with and suppress their own noticing inconsistencies (e.g. will a hand-maiden assisting someone try on a variety of very wrong-sized clothing notice the clothing changing size or it not making any sense that the clothing sizes don't make sense), to (at the other extreme) it just being a visual projection that looks visually like "bad clipping" in a video game when your glamour is off-size and you interact with unmoving objects or even floors/stairs/walls.

To me it feels like it should be up to the GM how powerful he wants the spell to be, and now with the Look Your Best spell, he might need to think about that sooner rather than later (since it's a much lower spell in IQ and cost).

Skarg 10-04-2018 12:00 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
These are good questions that mostly need rulings since they're not fully defined, but my rulings would tend to be:


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Quick-Draw (magic staff of suitable shape, say a wand) Are high level staffs immune to critical failures on quick-draw also?

Yes, it's just another way to accidentally drop your weapon, so it is covered.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Sex Appeal Is this a one-turn action that the Aid spell might help with? What if the wizard is using his own ST to boost his ST for this roll?

It would apply for two turns, but then drop out, so unless for some reason the subject is basing their reaction to someone on how they were for that 10 seconds, no. If it was a big Aid spell, they might even be negatively struck by the sudden drop. "Oh, they were really charming for 10 seconds, and then seemed to become much more dull." Also, unless the spell-casting right before it wasn't noticed, it could distract from the atmosphere to have someone casting a spell. (On the other hand, I can imagine there might be some wizards who have a culture where it is part of social exchanges to Aid your own IQ for moments of extra wit... but even so, I'd think less superficial mages would develop a keener discernment for what people's actual wits (and glamoured appearance, etc) are like. "You KNOW that's a glamoured nose, don't you? Oh, and Artaud? He's a ten-second wit, that's for sure...")


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Missile Weapons (Magic Fist) allowable?

It's not needed and doesn't exist because Missile Weapons still applies to all missile weapons and missile spells that you know. It's not re-learned per missile talent.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Poet Can this be used to write scrolls whose true effect is harder to discern?

I love that idea! I imagine the effect would be less on people who also have Poet and/or maybe Writing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Two Weapons How does the attack action of low-level magical staffs interact with this skill?

Good question. I'd tend to think it's probably the same only one attack is the staff attack, and that if the staff isn't something that can parry (like a light wand) then it can't be used for defensive options.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Weapon Expertise(Club) does this exist even though there is no Club skill?
Weapon Mastery(Club) doable?

Nice question! I'd say sure. Is this what Jackie Chan uses to fight like a master with improvised objects? Improvised Object Master?


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2213979)
Writing Any help with writing spellbooks or scrolls?

Good question. I would say so, and also for magic books, and continue to hope that the rules for how long exactly it takes to learn from magic books and other sources return somewhere.

Helborn 10-05-2018 07:26 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2213992)
Originally Posted by hcobb
Weapon Expertise(Club) does this exist even though there is no Club skill?
Weapon Mastery(Club) doable?


Nice question! I'd say sure. Is this what Jackie Chan uses to fight like a master with improvised objects? Improvised Object Master?

Weapon Expertise and Weapon Mastery are not per weapon talents but per weapon talent talents ;-) just like missile Weapons. You get Expertise for all swords not just a Broadsword. Clubs are listed in the Ax/Mace group. While Clubs are usable by all, the skill is part of the Ax/Mace weapon talent.

Skarg 10-05-2018 10:29 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2214178)
Weapon Expertise and Weapon Mastery are not per weapon talents but per weapon talent talents ;-) just like missile Weapons. You get Expertise for all swords not just a Broadsword. Clubs are listed in the Ax/Mace group. While Clubs are usable by all, the skill is part of the Ax/Mace weapon talent.

Ah, interesting observation. So if you want expert-level club ability, you'd need to learn Ax/Mace and then Ax/Mace(/Club) Expert.

What version of Missile Weapons are you reading that says it breaks down by type of missile?

BrotherBill 10-09-2018 06:34 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
If a Blur spell is cast on an Illusion (or an Illusion cast duplicating a blurred figure) does the Blur affect attempts to disbelieve? It could make it harder to notice fine incongruities and inconsistencies; it could also alter the integrity of the spell by changing it's appearance. If you regard Disbelief as a zero level spell, would it make disbelief harder to "cast?" Or does the blur have no effect because it alters DX instead if IQ, even if it does so by altering viewer's perceptions?

Skarg 10-09-2018 08:15 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
As written, Blur (and obstacles) don't affect IQ rolls to disbelieve. (I can see it as an interesting reasoning for a GM's added house rule.)

JohnPaulB 10-09-2018 11:23 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherBill (Post 2215100)
If a Blur spell is cast on an Illusion (or an Illusion cast duplicating a blurred figure) does the Blur affect attempts to disbelieve?

My opinion: You are disbelieving that there is a figure (illusion) there, not what he has on him, including Blur.

hcobb 10-09-2018 11:42 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Can you disbelieve a figure in a shadow hex that you haven't seen?

Skarg 10-10-2018 12:47 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215141)
Can you disbelieve a figure in a shadow hex that you haven't seen?

Not if you've never seen it, because it wouldn't make any sense for your character to disbelieve something they don't know exists.

However I don't think it's defined whether you need a line of sight to disbelieve something you saw before but now can't see.

hcobb 10-10-2018 03:17 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Does a single silver Cestus impede spellcasting?

If you face an opponent with two weapons then he's probably not a wizard as at least one of those wouldn't be his staff.

Helborn 10-11-2018 10:44 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2214222)
Ah, interesting observation. So if you want expert-level club ability, you'd need to learn Ax/Mace and then Ax/Mace(/Club) Expert.

What version of Missile Weapons are you reading that says it breaks down by type of missile?

no. If you want go be an expert in club you just take expert ax/mace. Unlike quick draw which is per weapon talent and you need quick draw club, quick draw mace, etc

Skarg 10-12-2018 12:30 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2215565)
no. If you want go be an expert in club you just take expert ax/mace. Unlike quick draw which is per weapon talent and you need quick draw club, quick draw mace, etc

In order to take Ax/Mace Expert, it seems to me you need to first know the Ax/Mace talent. I'm looking at:
Quote:

Originally Posted by ITL PDF preview page 41
Weapon Expertise (3). Expertise is a separate talent for each Weapon talent.
[...]
Prerequisite: appropriate Weapon talent, DX 12 or more.


The Wyzard 10-12-2018 12:25 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Man, if somebody wanted to take Expert in clubs, my instinct is to go ahead and let them. Would it break the game in any way?

Skarg 10-12-2018 01:32 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wyzard (Post 2215673)
Man, if somebody wanted to take Expert in clubs, my instinct is to go ahead and let them. Would it break the game in any way?

Not really... it's mainly just semantics and what we imagine makes sense as far as what Expert and Master talents represent. Is it Club Expert or Ax/Mace/Club Expert, and do we care that Expert lists a weapon talent as a requirement, and if we think it's Ax/Mace/Club Expert, can Bubu learn that without learning Ax/Mace, and then if they later learn Ax/Mace, they go from no ax skill to being an expert in one step?

It just reads to me as-written as no one can learn Expert or Master without learning the corresponding weapon talent first. Just because clubs need to talent to use and are listed on the weapon table along with axes and maces, does not say to me that you can therefore learn Ax/Mace Expert without learning Ax/Mace first.

It seems to me more like a consistency problem with clubs than a reason why you should be able to ignore the prereq. I'd be more inclined to say you could in theory learn Club Expert without a prereq, but that it's a separate talent from Ax/Mace Expert.

(Also I'd apply my usual thinking to learning talents - that it takes time and circumstances and is much easier with a trainer. If you don't have access to any Club Expert teacher, it means you're inventing your own expert ability to learn it, which is harder than being trained - whatever that means to the GM, now that the rules say you should just let people "have been studying it all along" when they choose to spend XP to learn something.)

hcobb 10-12-2018 01:59 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
What is my two years of training to move from club to mace spent doing?

platimus 10-12-2018 02:14 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215699)
What is my two years of training to move from club to mace spent doing?

A mace is a metal club. If someone trained you for two years to move from club to mace, I want to know how much money they swindled charged you?

hcobb 10-12-2018 02:21 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
I.e. Club skill is free (don't leave home without it), while adding the Mace skill takes 1k XP. At standard XP levels for an active adventurer that's two years of game time.

Skarg 10-12-2018 02:37 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215707)
I.e. Club skill is free (don't leave home without it), while adding the Mace skill takes 1k XP. At standard XP levels for an active adventurer that's two years of game time.

Good point.

It seems to me the place where logic starts breaking down is that a club doesn't require a talent but a mace does, and the only difference is damage done.

platimus 10-12-2018 03:06 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2215712)
Good point.

It seems to me the place where logic starts breaking down is that a club doesn't require a talent but a mace does, and the only difference is damage done.

I was a bit confused about what Hcobb was proposing/suggesting before. I also forgot that Club was free.

A mace is a good bit heavier than a club. I'd think your attacks would be a bit slower and therefore would need to be a bit more intelligent/planned. Therefore, it makes sense to me to have to practice with a Mace (to learn Ax/Mace). I would allow someone to skip any of the basic weapon talents and go straight to Expert or Master if they had a teacher.

Helborn 10-12-2018 03:26 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Skarg, you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that because Club is listed among Ax/Mace, once you have the Ax/Mace Talent and then become Expert(Ax/Mace) you are Expert at Clubs, Small Ax, Mace, Morningstar and every other weapon listed in the Table under Ax/Mace.

Yes, you DO have to take the Ax/Mace Talent before you can become an Expert with clubs even though you can use clubs without taking the Ax/Mace Talent.

You do not have to (in fact cannot) take Expert(Clubs), Expert(Mace), Expert(morningstar), etc.

The Wyzard 10-12-2018 05:02 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
I'm okay engaging in the rules fiction that there is a "clubs" talent which everyone has, rather than that no such talent exists or needed. Or alternately that the prerequisite is waived when no such talent exists. Yeah, it's wrong, but then you can let your player become a club expert directly, if they should wish to do so.

The question I would ask myself is whether such a move would give the player an *advantage* in any sense; that is, are there situations where a club is better than a mace? Because I'm less likely to allow such a dodge if clubs aren't strictly worse.

hcobb 10-12-2018 05:06 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wyzard (Post 2215761)
The question I would ask myself is whether such a move would give the player an *advantage* in any sense; that is, are there situations where a club is better than a mace? Because I'm less likely to allow such a dodge if clubs aren't strictly worse.

"A giant? Just a giant? Bring it on man!"

"The giant has a mace."

"Run away!"

BTW: Wait until the victim has acted and summon an illusion of a wolf behind them. The wolf engages the victim in HTH combat which has no disbelieve option.

Helborn 10-12-2018 05:45 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215762)
BTW: Wait until the victim has acted and summon an illusion of a wolf behind them. The wolf engages the victim in HTH combat which has no disbelieve option.

Hmmm. The Wolf Illusion can't do anything the turn it is created. And next turn..... who knows.....

hcobb 10-12-2018 05:54 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2215779)
Hmmm. The Wolf Illusion can't do anything the turn it is created. And next turn..... who knows.....

Wolf is at +4DX for a taking the victim from the rear so will act before the victim can disbelieve.

Helborn 10-12-2018 06:01 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wyzard (Post 2215761)
are there situations where a club is better than a mace? Because I'm less likely to allow such a dodge if clubs aren't strictly worse.

ITL 122

"A club or bludgeon is nothing more than a heavy chunk of wood, possibly embellished with a spike. It is a comparatively ineffective weapon, being blunt and badly balanced – but wielding a club requires no special skill whatsoever. Anyone can do it. The club is thus the preferred weapon of giants, ogres, Neanderthals, and anyone forced to improvise. The damage that a club does is based on the user’s ST. Refer to the Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club table (below). The damage shown on that table, plus 3, is the damage a fighter with a club does in regular combat. If
the club is used two-handed, as a maul, add 4 instead of 3."

In Death test 1, the Giant, at the end, PP 161 does 3+3 with his club, i.e. the damage of a Battle Axe +3. According to the table, if the damage was based on strength alone (with no weapon skill) the damage should be 1+6. There is your difference. A trained fighter will do the damage according to the weapon table using a club, while an untrained fighter will do damage according to the ST table.

Helborn 10-12-2018 06:02 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Obviously the Thorsz will not employ even Giants who are not trained......

Skarg 10-12-2018 06:32 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wyzard (Post 2215761)
... The question I would ask myself is whether such a move would give the player an *advantage* in any sense; that is, are there situations where a club is better than a mace? Because I'm less likely to allow such a dodge if clubs aren't strictly worse.

Just a mace, or all Ax/Mace weapons?

Clubs beat maces when you have enough ST, since for some reason normal weapons don't scale with ST (in RAW) but clubs do. The break even point is ST 13 (or ST 11 if you have a 2-handed club and a mace but no shield) if you think 1d+2 is close enough to 2d-1 (small axes are ST 11 1d+2 too), or ST 15 (13 comparing 2-handed w. no shield) if you need 1d+3 to deem it better than 2d-1. ST 17 will do 1d+4 (1d+5 2-hdd).

Other advantages of a club are that it costs nothing, can weigh 3 lbs less than a mace, it has no listed minimum ST, and that you can improvise a club from ordinary objects (with the brawling talent, you can claim to be able to make a club out of any piece of broken furniture).

hcobb 10-12-2018 06:41 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Can a ST 4 Halfling do a 1d two handed throw of a club?

Skarg 10-12-2018 07:11 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215762)
"A giant? Just a giant? Bring it on man!"

"The giant has a mace."

"Run away!"

Seems more like:
"The giant has a mace."
"Sweet, that does a lot less damage than it would with a club!"
No?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2215784)
In Death test 1, the Giant, at the end, PP 161 does 3+3 with his club, i.e. the damage of a Battle Axe +3. According to the table, if the damage was based on strength alone (with no weapon skill) the damage should be 1+6. There is your difference. A trained fighter will do the damage according to the weapon table using a club, while an untrained fighter will do damage according to the ST table.

That'd be cool if the rules said that.
Really it is that the Death Test I giant damage hasn't changed since it was written about 1978, using the original Melee rules which are also still as was in new Melee, which say a Giant ranges from at least ST 24 to "about 50 if he's a tough one", and that a Giant does 1d+1 damage for every 10 ST he has, so the 30 ST giant does 3d+3, and the 50 ST giant would do 5d+5. In ITL, giants are said to be ST 25 to 40, and per the table, even with a two-handed club would do:

ST 25-30: 1d+7
ST 31-40: 2d+5
ST 41-50 (Basic Melee only?): 3d+5

It's not vastly different from the basic Melee formula for most ST values, but Melee giants have an advantage:

Code:

ITL damage vs basic Melee damage:
ST 24-29:    1d+7 vs. 2d+2  (avg 10.5 vs. 9, max 13 vs. 14)
ST 30:      1d+7 vs. 3d+3  (avg 10.5 vs. 13.5, max 13 vs. 21)
ST 31-39:    2d+5 vs. 3d+3  (avg 12 vs. 13.5, max 17 vs. 21)
ST 40:      2d+5 vs. 4d+4  (avg 12 vs. 18, max 17 vs. 28)
ST 41-49:    3d+5 vs. 4d+4  (avg 15.5 vs. 18, max 23 vs. 28)
ST 50:      3d+5 vs. 5d+5  (avg 15.5 vs. 22.5, max 23 vs. 35)

ITL has also had the sentence about swords, axes, or giant cesti strapped to their hands (2d+2, 3 dice in HTH), but I always took that to mean cesti damage rather than sword, axe, or club damage. Seems like it should still go by the ST table since giants vary at least from 25 to 40 in ST, which would be:

ST 25-30: 1d+7, 1d+8 in HTH
ST 31-40: 2d+5, 2d+6 in HTH
ST 41-50 (Basic Melee only?): 3d+5, 3d+6 in HTH

So apart from lower max possible damage for ST 25-30 giants, the table gives rather higher damage with Cestus than the comment in the giant description in ITL.

As for sometimes using axes and swords, unless there's a rule for getting to do more damage with high ST, giants would seem to do better with clubs.

And as for a giant becoming a club expert/master, they pretty much can't since weapon Expertise is an IQ 11 talent and giant max IQ is 10.

Skarg 10-12-2018 07:31 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215790)
Can a ST 4 Halfling do a 1d two handed throw of a club?

RAW, I see no rules against it... 1d, even better than daggers at 1d-1. Trade-off is clubs weigh at least 3 pounds each, so a supply of them starts to be slightly significant for encumbrance with someone at ST 4.




Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215762)
BTW: Wait until the victim has acted and summon an illusion of a wolf behind them. The wolf engages the victim in HTH combat which has no disbelieve option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helborn (Post 2215779)
Hmmm. The Wolf Illusion can't do anything the turn it is created. And next turn..... who knows.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2215783)
Wolf is at +4DX for a taking the victim from the rear so will act before the victim can disbelieve.

Turn 1:
Victim moves away and turns his back to wizard.
Wizard summons wolf.

Turn 2:
Victim can turn around during movement if he wants to be able to respond to the sounds of spellcasting behind him. In TFT, he could even run away at full MA and end movement facing back the way he came, but can only disbelieve (during the action phase) if he moved 1 or less. If he's close enough and depending on terrain and facing, the wolf might or might not have enough MA to initiate HTH even from the rear during movement this turn - the wolf can attempt it from the front unless the victim has as much MA as the wolf somehow (who goes first would be based on adj DX).

So it seems to me it depends on various things. If the victim just runs and faces away long enough for the wolf to get him in HTH, then yeah he will likely get no chance to disbelieve. It really depends on who wins initiative, the map and the victim's adjDX whether he'll get a chance to disbelieve if the victim tries to move one and disbelieve before the wolf gets to try to initiate HTH first (the result of that could give the victim a chance to disbelieve). It may also become vital to know whether you can disbelieve without a line of sight or not.

TedT 11-09-2020 11:25 PM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
"The damage that a club does is based on the user’s ST. Refer to the Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club table (below). The damage shown on that table, plus 3, is the damage a fighter with a club does in regular combat. If the club is used two-handed, as a maul, add 4 instead of 3."

In Death test 1, the Giant, at the end, PP 161 does 3+3 with his club, i.e. the damage of a Battle Axe +3. According to the table, if the damage was based on strength alone (with no weapon skill) the damage should be 1+6. There is your difference. A trained fighter will do the damage according to the weapon table using a club, while an untrained fighter will do damage according to the ST table."

The spell Summon Giant brings an ST 30 giant who does 3d+3 with club. But in the rules for damage with a club where giants are discussed (pg. 122), ST 30 lines up with 1d+6 (one-handed) and 1d+7 (two-handed). Summoned giants wield clubs with extra gusto?

Skarg 11-10-2020 12:21 AM

Re: Misc. Spell questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TedT (Post 2353007)
.. The spell Summon Giant brings an ST 30 giant who does 3d+3 with club. But in the rules for damage with a club where giants are discussed (pg. 122), ST 30 lines up with 1d+6 (one-handed) and 1d+7 (two-handed). Summoned giants wield clubs with extra gusto?

Giants have rules for their club damage in basic Melee, which says they use giant-sized weapons that do 1d+1 per 10 ST, which is what Wizard, Death Test, and the ITL Summon Giant spell show.

The ITL bare hand damage table would apply to a human-sized figure using a human-sized club, IF they had ST 24-30. Notice too that if they had ST 31, they'd do 2d+5, which is closer to 3d+3, And a giant with ST 20 using the Melee-based giant club damage rule would do only 2d+2. so part of the difference is just from the crude low grain of both damage rules.

But it seems to me that a giant's club is rather larger than the "2-handed maul" that supposedly even a ST 4 halfling can use. And 3d+3 seems more "right" to me for a ST 30 giant with a huge club, than 1d+6.


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