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-   -   Creature ST from size in hexes (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=172412)

hcobb 03-03-2021 09:43 AM

Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Adult humans avg ST 10 and 150 pounds. sqrt(150/1.5) = 10

Large 1-hex figures are 300 pounds, hence avg ST 14 (c.f. Reptile men and gargoyles)

2-hex figures are around 1000 pounds, hence avg ST for a horse or centaur should be ST 25

3-hex figures are up to 2000 pounds, ST 36 (which is near but not at the top of Giant ST)

4-hex dragons weigh 3000 pounds hence their ST isn't 45 like it ought to be.

Oxen also weigh up to 3000 pounds (a 2-hex animal?) and so have predicted ST of 45 vs listed ST 40.

Elephants/mammoths weigh up to 13,000 pounds and have predicted ST of 93, vs listed maximum ST of 75

phiwum 03-03-2021 12:05 PM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2369891)
Adult humans avg ST 10 and 150 pounds. sqrt(150/1.5) = 10

Large 1-hex figures are 300 pounds, hence avg ST 14 (c.f. Reptile men and gargoyles)

2-hex figures are around 1000 pounds, hence avg ST for a horse or centaur should be ST 25

3-hex figures are up to 2000 pounds, ST 36 (which is near but not at the top of Giant ST)

4-hex dragons weigh 3000 pounds hence their ST isn't 45 like it ought to be.

Oxen also weigh up to 3000 pounds (a 2-hex animal?) and so have predicted ST of 45 vs listed ST 40.

Elephants/mammoths weigh up to 13,000 pounds and have predicted ST of 93, vs listed maximum ST of 75

Yes, I guess if you assume a direct correlation between ST and size in hexes, you come to results that don't match RAW. Sometimes, grabbing assumptions out of thin air can have that result.

If you're really keen on this notion, then any hero with ST 14 has to be represented as two hexes and then he gets to trample.

But why would you use a sqrt in your calculations? I'm not suggesting you shouldn't. I just don't get why you do. I don't get how ST is related to mass. I can kinda see the relation between mass and area as something like
m = (sqrt(A)) ^3
for a first ballpark figure, but going from there to ST is unclear to me. (Surely, it's not just because the numbers work out for humans? The numbers would also work if you take mass and divide it by 15, after all.)

hcobb 03-03-2021 02:11 PM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
ST is openly quadratic in some places in the rulebook and more obscure in others.

See maximum weight that can be lifted at ITL 65 for example.

tomc 03-07-2021 01:44 PM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
The ST attribute covers multiple things, and creatures are made of widely varying stuff, so I'm thinking a ball park estimate is good enough for most purposes.

David Bofinger 03-08-2021 06:35 AM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Seems to me most creatures fit the model pretty well. Dragons are a bit of an outlier, but dragons are long thin wyrms so you'd expect them to be weaker than their hexes suggest.

hcobb 03-08-2021 06:48 AM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
If dragons do have the weight from their size then the defense of "I'm not fat, just fluffy" no longer applies.

WMG: Cidri dragons fly (and breathe fire) because they are full of hydrogen (or at least methane) gas.

This explains why their nests aren't overrun with pests as the dragons are fume-a-gators.

Skarg 03-16-2021 01:13 PM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2369891)
Adult humans avg ST 10 and 150 pounds. sqrt(150/1.5) = 10

Large 1-hex figures are 300 pounds, hence avg ST 14 (c.f. Reptile men and gargoyles)

2-hex figures are around 1000 pounds, hence avg ST for a horse or centaur should be ST 25

3-hex figures are up to 2000 pounds, ST 36 (which is near but not at the top of Giant ST)...

Hmm. Real-world adult horses vary in weight from 400 to 2600 pounds. Are you going to make a Percheron horse a 4-hex figure to fit your formula?

hcobb 03-16-2021 03:36 PM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg (Post 2371707)
Hmm. Real-world adult horses vary in weight from 400 to 2600 pounds. Are you going to make a Percheron horse a 4-hex figure to fit your formula?

Horses have their hex sizes reduced because they're not as aggressive as dragons.

ITL 88 gives a draft horse ST range of 26-38, while the formula (from draft horse weight of 1,400 to 2,000 lb) gives a ST range of 30 to 36 and the 2600 monster horse is ST 41 or 42.

phiwum 04-13-2021 09:29 AM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
What is the relation between area and weight in your calculations? I wanted to extend the pattern to seven and fourteen hexes, but I can't see where weight comes from. It scales linearly from two hexes on in your examples.

1 hex: either 150 or 300
2 hexes: 1000
3 hexes: 2000
4 hexes: 3000
7 hexes: 6000? More?

hcobb 04-13-2021 10:10 AM

Re: Creature ST from size in hexes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phiwum (Post 2375437)
What is the relation between area and weight in your calculations?

Fact checking that:

Elephant is up to ten hexes at up to 15,000 pounds while the above says 10,000 pounds.

Curve fitting in excel gives that the best fit is 300 pounds times the size in hexes raised to the 1.7th power.

14 hex dragon is then 13 short tons which is within the high end range estimates for T-Rex.

Code:

Hexes        Actual #        Calc #        Calc ST
1        300                300        14
2        1000                975        25
3        2000              1942        36
4                      3167        46
7                      8200        74
10        15000        15036        100
14        30800        26640        133



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