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-   -   [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=173462)

Tymathee 05-30-2021 12:54 AM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2381956)
In that Kromm's post it is explicit that the modifier encompasses all the players; it is not reserved for a single character.

I think you misunderstand. What I meant is that if the players want to purchase it with that modifier, they may do so. I apologize if I was not transparent enough with how I articulated that.

Hide 05-30-2021 02:24 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymathee (Post 2381958)
I think you misunderstand. What I meant is that if the players want to purchase it with that modifier, they may do so. I apologize if I was not transparent enough with how I articulated that.

What you said is clear.

What I am explaining to you is that this 0% modifier is more like a switch that affects how luck works in the setting, it is a feature of the game, it is not a thing of a character.

This modifier in particular will cause unbalance if some have it and some don't.
It changes, at no cost, the lucky break ratio in a game-session:

20:00 (real life): Player 1 calls unmodified luck, regardless of what happens in the game, he can use luck until it is 23:00.

21:00 (real life): Player 2 calls "game-time" luck, then they camp for 8 in game hours.
21:30 (real life): Player 2 can use luck again, and he does.
22:00 (real life): The party takes a 5-hour ride, player 2 calls luck again.

ravenfish 05-30-2021 03:21 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
I think "game-time" versus "play-time" are not dramatically unbalanced (and they are certainly listed in Powers as per-advantage options rather than per-game options). When a few minutes of infiltration and fighting drag out into an hour at the table, the player who took game-time on his Luck will look enviously at the one who didn't; when a month of travel speeds by in a few minutes, the player who took unmodified luck will look on enviously as the one who took game-time uses Luck on every navigation and survival roll. It strikes me as reasonable.

WingedKagouti 05-30-2021 03:38 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2381950)
Then your Alice is a 310 CP character.

As I see it, Alice has a cosmic (+100%) enhancement, similar to "wishing" from GURPS Powers P.59; time is inherently tied to your will.

You have to give players the same ratio of luck as Alice will have or the advantage would be fickle.

From a player’s perspective the modifier is not a 0% feature.

Game Time is canonically a +0% modifier to any variety of Luck, you can find it in Powers (p. 108).

Hide 05-30-2021 04:05 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ravenfish (Post 2382019)
I think "game-time" versus "play-time" are not dramatically unbalanced (and they are certainly listed in Powers as per-advantage options rather than per-game options) (...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti (Post 2382022)
Game Time is canonically a +0% modifier to any variety of Luck, you can find it in Powers (p. 108).

What you say is understandable, but the OPs take is different:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymathee (Post 2381945)
Part 2 (...) Ridiculous Luck has the Game Time modifier which I will have convert to a 1 for 1 ratio. She can use her Ridiculous Luck every ten minutes in game time. It is always the GM’s discretion as to how fast or slow time flows during a game (...)


Under that scope and observing Tymathee is the GM, the advantage is inconsistent as part of an NPC he wants to measure with character points. This is cosmic powers, resembling the "wish modifier". GURPS Powers states something else, it establishes a "non discretional" ratio of lucky breaks, for example: "(...) Ridiculous Luck, which works every 10 real minutes, gets six uses per game day (...)"

That said Tymathee, the recommendation here is you either:
  • Drop the idea of measuring Alice (NPC) with CP if the behavior of her powers will be discretional.
  • Change her set of abilities for ones that represent the right amount of CP for the abilities you want to call (e.g. adjust the price of Luck to 120 CP as I previously stated).
  • Establish a fair (non-discretional) ratio of lucky breaks. Consider the same for similar abilities in your game.

Tymathee 05-30-2021 05:22 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382024)
*snip*

Quote:

Originally Posted by GURPS Powers, pg. 108
The GM may adjust these ratios.

My alteration of said ratio is wholly within my power to do so, as per the rules of the modifier. You can certainly advise me on this matter and I will most definitely take it into account for my game.

Realistically there is no fair value for such a modifier. Regardless of the time scale implemented by the GM, GM fiat for the passage of time and the abstraction of time and its usage are what is ultimately the balancing factors of this modifier. 10 minutes of in-game time could very well take 25 minutes or more of real life time. If my game session is 5 hours of continuous play, that's about 30 potential uses for unmodified Ridiculous Luck. Ridiculous Luck with the Game Time modifier should ideally be within that same range more or less in my opinion... it is a matter of semantics.

Within the context of dungeon crawling, this kind of gameplay is very much about the minute-by-minute play, where that 10 minutes game time to 25 minutes or more of real life time ratio could be a realistic expectation. Experience may differ from game to game and how the GM handles time usage.

Hide 05-30-2021 07:38 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
You can adjust the ratios, but the ratios should be clear and non-discretional.

When the ability is discretional, it’s best if you just say “she does things because I say so” and forget about her CP value.

Right now, the ability does not give any certainty; you can recharge her luck as you wish because there are no rules regarding the flow of time in the setting. You can accelerate or decelerate time when you see it fit (as you pointed you might do), players cannot.

You can't guarantee players a specific number of lucky breaks game-time wise. Thus, Alice is in an advantageous position to frustrate the advancement of your players; it is comparable to a failsafe.

Assuming you want to benchmark Alice, the other questionable thing about her is you want to say “Alice is a 250 CP NPC” while it isn’t the case. As a GM you are giving her a cosmic boost which you are not counting towards her character value. In this case, just keep a list of her abilities and characteristics, as established in the newer NPC templates and do not compare her CP value with a player's character value.

Tymathee 05-30-2021 08:14 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382038)
Right now, the ability does not give any certainty; you can recharge her luck as you wish because there are no rules regarding the flow of time in the setting. You can accelerate or decelerate time when you see it fit (as you pointed you might do), players cannot.

There is no codified means of precise measurement of in-game time in any setting that I know of, and any GM who wants that kind of overhead should consider investing their time in more valuable endeavors. Discretionary time is inherently built into the Game Time modifier. A "game day" could be as brief or detailed in how the GM wants the players to roleplay it out... that sounds explicitly discretionary to me.

We obviously value our time differently, but according to the RAW I'm within my right to still say that this is a +0% modifier. My reasoning is sound and I am confident that I'm capable of articulating it to my players in a manner that would assure them of the balance intended.

Hide 05-30-2021 09:08 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymathee (Post 2382045)
There is no codified means of precise measurement of in-game time in any setting that I know of, and any GM who wants that kind of overhead should consider investing their time in more valuable endeavors (...)

This is not about overhead or time management; it is about being partial and discretional with an ability that is part of an NPC you want to rate as a player character.

Following the example in GURPS Powers: Ridiculous luck grants a character 6 uses of luck per real-life hour and 6 uses of luck per game-time day. That is a solid way to measure lucky breaks, especially because you just can’t skip a game-time day to recharge Alice’s luck.

Under the example's logic, you would be technically giving Alice at least 144 lucky breaks per in-game day, that’s out of proportion (6 vs 144).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymathee (Post 2382045)
(...) Discretionary time is inherently built into the Game Time modifier (...) I'm within my right to still say that this is a +0% modifier (...)

At the level you suggest, super luck falls short even if it lets you dictate 24 rolls per in-game day; statistically a 144 attempts and GM time control will grant you the results you seek when you need them (for less CP).

Finally, it is especially easy for you to skip a few minutes of in-game time and say “Oops! You looking for Alice? It’s been ten minutes already, sorry dudes, Alice’s secret rolls powered by the combination of my in-game time control and her luck have justified her escape. Have fun surviving the queen’s guard!”.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymathee (Post 2382045)
(...) My reasoning is sound and I am confident that I'm capable of articulating it (...)

The setting sounds amazing, but IMO at this point the way you handle/modify Luck is a great player deterrent. The proportion between the examples provided by RAW and "your version" of luck, gives me the impression you are stretching things too far to make them "fall within the rules". It would be better if you just say things happens because you want them to happen, at least that would provide a clearer expectative of your vision as a GM.

Tymathee 05-30-2021 10:16 PM

Re: [DF] A Portal Fantasy within a Dungeon Fantasy: Where's Alice?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382049)
This is not about overhead or time management; it is about being partial and discretional with an ability that is part of an NPC you want to rate as a player character.

Following the example in GURPS Powers: Ridiculous luck grants a character 6 uses of luck per real-life hour and 6 uses of luck per game-time day. That is a solid way to measure lucky breaks, especially because you just can’t skip a game-time day to recharge Alice’s luck.

Under the example's logic, you would be technically giving Alice at least 144 lucky breaks per in-game day, that’s out of proportion (6 vs 144).

Since I've managed to clarify that it is indeed discretional, there's nothing stopping me from having (un)appropriately timed time-skips between days to go from having no uses to full again after the initial six uses are used... and since we have that made clear we can come to the conclusion that the text as written within Powers is not scripture to be taken literally. The last sentence of the modifier makes that very apparent. My ten minutes of game time to use ratio still stands. My GM fiat is what keeps the balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382049)
At the level you suggest, super luck falls short even if it lets you dictate 24 rolls per in-game day; statistically a 144 attempts and GM time control will grant you the results you seek when you need them (for less CP).

Super Luck isn't even an option at character generation or even obtainable through advancement, as it isn't even recommended in DF's Adventurers as even being appropriate for the genre according to the "Dungeon Delvers' Cheat Sheet".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382049)
Finally, it is especially easy for you to skip a few minutes of in-game time and say “Oops! You looking for Alice? It’s been ten minutes already, sorry dudes, Alice’s secret rolls powered by the combination of my in-game time control and her luck have justified her escape. Have fun surviving the queen’s guard!”.

Time can be skipped or it can be intentionally stretched, as the passing of time in-game is always at the GM's discretion. As GM, one would hope to be ethical in how they do this. While adversarial GM'ing is actually required to properly run some of these modules the way Gygax appears to have intended, I'm not so malicious as to take away an NPC I've specifically placed to more likely than not ally with the PC party during a potential TPK scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hide (Post 2382049)
The setting sounds amazing, but IMO at this point the way you handle/modify Luck is a great player deterrent. The proportion between the examples provided by RAW and "your version" of luck, gives me the impression you are stretching things too far to make them "fall within the rules". It would be better if you just say things happens because you want them to happen, at least that would provide a clearer expectative of your vision as a GM.

It's not a deterrent because both Alice and PCs can have access to it, at least if they're willing to pay the points for it. I'm providing equal opportunity, and I've scaled the effects of the advantage to reflect what I'd like to see. I quite like the setting I've been working on. It's intentionally strange and silly but plays it straight.

It appears we are at an impasse.


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