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-   -   IQ to power spells (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=164336)

zot 06-28-2019 02:07 AM

IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoug (Post 2271087)
I've been toying with the idea of IQ fatigue as a way of handling this type of thing. IQ fatigue would recover as normal fatigue, but it will only recover while you are completely healthy, so it's definitely harder to recover than strength. It also renders your high IQ spells inert to be IQ fatigued below their requirements.

To combine your idea with mine, "double learning" a spell would allow you to fatigue your IQ as a way of powering that spell. You would be called a "Savant" in that spell. Triple learning a spell implies a sorcerous or demonic bloodline, and allows you to to power that spell with IQ fatigue at double efficiency.

I feel like this probably a fair mechanic as it is functionally identical to a powered down version of a Mana stat based on IQ. Instead of annihilating the normal way wizards work, it gives you expanded options.

This is a neat idea -- I like how it allows for specialization. It makes wizards much less generic. It could be that double or triple learning ought to cost more than just 1 talent point each because wizards tend to specialize anyway and would probably end up getting a much better XP deal with this system since it makes your full IQ or twice your full IQ available at the cost of one or two more talent points. Btw, this reminds me of how, in the original GURPS fantasy, you could pump XP into a spell to reduce its cost. We called wizards who did that "savants" back when GURPS first came out.

If you want to move towards parity with the mana staff mechanic, here are some tweaks to the idea that might help with that...

1: Make two new talents with the same IQ levels as staff II and staff V
2: Make it cost 5 ST to regain 1 IQ fatigue instead of letting IQ recharge at the normal rate when you're fully healed
3: Make the second talent provide a 3rd bank of power you can use for thrice-learned spells (in my opinion, this is cleaner with the 5 ST-recharge idea 1/2 cost is)

IQ 11: Channel Power (1) A wizard who knows this talent gains a second fatigue reserve equal to their IQ that they can only use with spells they learn a "second time". Spending 5 ST fatigue will replace 1 point of reserve power. Only wizards can learn this talent and it costs only 1 IQ point (or 500 XP) for a wizard.

IQ 17: Channel Sorcerous Power (1) A wizard who knows this talent gains a third fatigue reserve equal to their IQ that they can only use with spells they learn a "third time". Spending 5 ST fatigue will replace 1 point of reserve power. Only wizards can learn this talent and it costs only 1 IQ point (or 500 XP) for a wizard.

MikMod 06-28-2019 04:23 AM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
I really like this idea of IQ as 'mental strength'

I feel it's worth considering, particularly as (in my view) IQ is devalued in the new ITL, and wizards always had it tougher (again in my opinion) because all three stats were vital to them, and now stats are effectively capped.

Given Mana though, is there really a need to make it any more complex than simply 'mental fatigue' as spell cost though? And like fighters don't suddenly become incapable of lifting their swords as they get wounded, I don't see the need to stop wizards using high level spells as they get tired. Cant it work just like ST? Or is there something I've not thought of (which is quite likely :)

Steve Plambeck 06-28-2019 04:34 AM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2271351)
And like fighters don't suddenly become incapable of lifting their swords as they get wounded, I don't see the need to stop wizards using high level spells as they get tired. Cant it work just like ST? Or is there something I've not thought of (which is quite likely :)

I agree completely with that analogy. At least in my groups' experience it worked just fine that way. I think the additional complexity added by limiting >which< memorized spells are available based on anything other than having enough energy to power them would be extraneous. I want to use that old phrase, "less is more".

warhorse11h 06-28-2019 05:52 AM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
A similar discussion occurred a few months ago. For those interested, this link will take you to the first post. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161630

Tywyll 06-28-2019 06:14 AM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
I use the Powers from Beyond the Pale Talent from (JME?) house rules I found on the net a million years ago:

IQ 10
POWERS FROM BEYOND THE PALE (variable): The character spends scores of hours each month performing meditative magical rituals and smoking and ingesting magical herbs in order to call upon powers outside of his own body to help him cast arcane magic. For every talent point invested in thistalent, the character gains 2 points of ST that can be used only as a reservoir for paying the ST pointcosts of casting arcane magic (i.e., it has no effect on physical power, resistance to injuries or illnesses, etc.). Points expended from this pool of extra ST are not recuperated like normal ST drain from spell
casting; instead, they remain exhausted until the character can spend time repeating his rituals, whichrequires at least 1 un-interrupted hour and cannot be performed more than once per day. Prerequisites:
APPRENTICE, DIABOLISM or SHAMANISM talents

It's worth noting that talents in these house rules cost 1/2 an attribute point.

MikMod 06-28-2019 09:08 AM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by warhorse11h (Post 2271365)
A similar discussion occurred a few months ago. For those interested, this link will take you to the first post. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=161630

Interesting - thank you!

(And I really like the Skarg-JLV love-in! :D)

Shoug 06-28-2019 12:03 PM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2271351)
I really like this idea of IQ as 'mental strength'

I feel it's worth considering, particularly as (in my view) IQ is devalued in the new ITL, and wizards always had it tougher (again in my opinion) because all three stats were vital to them, and now stats are effectively capped.

Given Mana though, is there really a need to make it any more complex than simply 'mental fatigue' as spell cost though? And like fighters don't suddenly become incapable of lifting their swords as they get wounded, I don't see the need to stop wizards using high level spells as they get tired. Cant it work just like ST? Or is there something I've not thought of (which is quite likely :)

That would be fine if you would be fine with wizards having no need for ST or manastaffs, which you might. But when I envision myself annihilating both of those mechanics, something inside me squirms. Here's what I would say: All characters experience a tension between focusing on 2 or 3 stats. Just as a fighter would like to swing a bigger stick more successfully, a wizard would like to cast a bigger spell more successfully. But a fighter would also like to take Weapon Mastery or Physicker, and a wizard would like to be able to cast 1 more spell.

This (and one other reason) is why I made my IQ for Mana mechanic so limited. It was intended to be a mechanic that gave wizards who wanted it a little bit more flexibility. You can't do it more than a few times before losing the ability to cast until you rest again, which is already in line with how wizards work RAW, but it could really save your hide. I wouldn't be opposed to letting "sorcerous Mana" start at double efficiency, however.

The "other" reason I had for making the IQ fatigue affect what spells you could cast (and trust me, the inconsistency between IQ fatigue affecting your options and ST fatigue not wasn't lost on me, I just ignored it) was because it made it resemble DnD sorcery. In DnD, sorcerers depend primarily on cantrips and other low level spells cast with higher frequency. With this mechanic, a wizard who depends on IQ fatigue will be depending on his lower IQ spells as they remain available as your IQ fatigue deepens, and it's not very useful to be Sorcerous in a spell at the bleeding edge of what you can understand.

Even though my mechanic is not as useful to a wizard as heaps and mounds of free mana with no strings attached, it's more useful to the wizardly fighter. An IQ fighter like a master fencer or archer could take a useful low level spell like Image or Blur for 4 talent points, and they would be able to cast it 2-4 times for free! It puts Witcher style cantrips into the hands of heros, and that sounds like a lot of fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2271344)
This is a neat idea -- I like how it allows for specialization. It makes wizards much less generic. It could be that double or triple learning ought to cost more than just 1 talent point each because wizards tend to specialize anyway and would probably end up getting a much better XP deal with this system since it makes your full IQ or twice your full IQ available at the cost of one or two more talent points. Btw, this reminds me of how, in the original GURPS fantasy, you could pump XP into a spell to reduce its cost. We called wizards who did that "savants" back when GURPS first came out.

If you want to move towards parity with the mana staff mechanic, here are some tweaks to the idea that might help with that...

1: Make two new talents with the same IQ levels as staff II and staff V
2: Make it cost 5 ST to regain 1 IQ fatigue instead of letting IQ recharge at the normal rate when you're fully healed
3: Make the second talent provide a 3rd bank of power you can use for thrice-learned spells (in my opinion, this is cleaner with the 5 ST-recharge idea 1/2 cost is)

IQ 11: Channel Power (1) A wizard who knows this talent gains a second fatigue reserve equal to their IQ that they can only use with spells they learn a "second time". Spending 5 ST fatigue will replace 1 point of reserve power. Only wizards can learn this talent and it costs only 1 IQ point (or 500 XP) for a wizard.

IQ 17: Channel Sorcerous Power (1) A wizard who knows this talent gains a third fatigue reserve equal to their IQ that they can only use with spells they learn a "third time". Spending 5 ST fatigue will replace 1 point of reserve power. Only wizards can learn this talent and it costs only 1 IQ point (or 500 XP) for a wizard.

I like this idea, but the original base assumption I was using was that I didn't want to circumvent strength and manastaffs. This is effectively identical to the very common Mana houserule, which I'm sure is very fun to play with, but to me it is too much of a departure from the vulnerability of the old way. I would offer this synthesis: You can take those talents for 1 talent point, but you have to also spend a talent point on each known spell that you want to be able to power in that way. This way, if you want to completely ignore strength and manastaffs, it requires that you buy all your spells at double cost. You could still simply choose the best spells (illusion, image, summons, fire, blur), so I don't know about it still, but it's an improvement.

zot 06-28-2019 03:38 PM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoug (Post 2271419)
I like this idea, but the original base assumption I was using was that I didn't want to circumvent strength and manastaffs. This is effectively identical to the very common Mana houserule, which I'm sure is very fun to play with, but to me it is too much of a departure from the vulnerability of the old way. I would offer this synthesis: You can take those talents for 1 talent point, but you have to also spend a talent point on each known spell that you want to be able to power in that way. This way, if you want to completely ignore strength and manastaffs, it requires that you buy all your spells at double cost. You could still simply choose the best spells (illusion, image, summons, fire, blur), so I don't know about it still, but it's an improvement.

I'm pretty sure I meant what you just wrote when I put learn a "second time" and learn a "third time" into the talent descriptions. I put those things from your post into the talents. The IQ levels, 5-to-1 ST cost for IQ recovery, and the concept of a "third fatigue reserve" are the only changes.

MikMod 06-28-2019 05:28 PM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck (Post 2271354)
I agree completely with that analogy. At least in my groups' experience it worked just fine that way. I think the additional complexity added by limiting >which< memorized spells are available based on anything other than having enough energy to power them would be extraneous. I want to use that old phrase, "less is more".

Agreed. Simple == Good in my book. It's a very interesting mechanic to think about, but I'm concerned that:

(a) wizards are almost immediately going to be crippled down to low level spells, and be locked out of using more powerful spells a bit later when they really need them. This could also distort wizards into mainly learning very basic spells. And

(b) what happens after an IQ 12 wizard has acquired 5 points of mental fatigue? Are they now incapable of casting any spells at all?!

Shoug 06-28-2019 06:04 PM

Re: IQ to power spells
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zot (Post 2271458)
I'm pretty sure I meant what you just wrote when I put learn a "second time" and learn a "third time" into the talent descriptions. I put those things from your post into the talents. The IQ levels, 5-to-1 ST cost for IQ recovery, and the concept of a "third fatigue reserve" are the only changes.

There is another change: Use of sorcerous power doesn't diminish your IQ. In my system, you do not have an fatigue reserve equal to your IQ, you have a fatigue reserve equal to your IQ-8, if the only spells you have learned are IQ 8 spells. Do you see what I'm saying? Under my system, as your IQ becomes fatigued from using sorcery, you lose the ability to cast spells which are of higher IQ requirement levels than your "adjIQ." This is a very important part of it, for me, because it means that the ability can't be used as a substitute for strength or mana staves. As written, your version of the ability is dramatically more powerful than spending attribute points on strength or charging a staff with XP.


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