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GWJ 01-05-2020 05:24 PM

[HT] Grenades fuse
 
There are some fuse ranges in the table - how they should be understanded? For example fuse 4-5:

a) user decides in the moment of pulling the pin
b) user decides in the moment of buying the grenade
c) random time (50/50) - either 4 or 5 seconds

?

Fred Brackin 01-05-2020 05:54 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303265)
There are some fuse ranges in the table - how they should be understanded? For example fuse 4-5:

a) user decides in the moment of pulling the pin
b) user decides in the moment of buying the grenade
c) random time (50/50) - either 4 or 5 seconds

?

It's (C). Grenade fuses are not all that precise.

GWJ 01-06-2020 02:20 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Are there any rules for thrown grenades about "how many seconds will pass before it reach the destination"? Or for bouncing after impact? :P We plan to play in tactical shooter with heavy grenade usage, so I think it will be important issue.

evileeyore 01-06-2020 05:19 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303320)
Are there any rules for thrown grenades about "how many seconds will pass before it reach the destination"?

That's determined by the length of the fuse.

Quote:

Or for bouncing after impact?
Scatter rules are in Basic pg 414.


For the most part in GURPS, grenade timing is handwaved to a "it explodes immediately after being thrown/fired", because in real life most people do not act as fast or as precisely as GURPS Characters do.

However, if you're implementing the full OODA loop (some sort of Per and Tactics roll each turn to properly implement a change in action), and your PCs aren't going to be acrobatically flipping away from a 4 second grenade the moment it lands, then I'd go ahead and actually count the passage of turns before a grenade explodes. If not, then I'd handwave away grenade timing. Or have enemies cook off a grenade before throwing it (so on a significant failure the grenade actually goes off in hand or during flight). Launched grenades can have 'split-second' fuses (TL 7+) and just be handwaved even in an OODA loop game.

GWJ 01-06-2020 07:34 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303330)
That's determined by the length of the fuse.

So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses? :P Specifically, I'm thinking about situations like this:

I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?

And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?

Rupert 01-06-2020 08:28 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

If flight time really matters, I'd rule that a throw of under half the thrower's maximum distance lands at the end of their current turn, and one over that lands at the beginning of their next. The fuse would 'tick' at the start of their turn, so a 1s fuse can't be safely 'cooked off' - it'll go off in your hand.

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

The Colonel 01-06-2020 08:42 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

If flight time really matters, I'd rule that a throw of under half the thrower's maximum distance lands at the end of their current turn, and one over that lands at the beginning of their next. The fuse would 'tick' at the start of their turn, so a 1s fuse can't be safely 'cooked off' - it'll go off in your hand.

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

...and not just in GURPS it must be said. As for unreliable fuses, according to Ian Hogg Japanese grenade fuses captured during WW2 were so variable that some of them were effectively on a 0 second delay although other opinion thinks those may have been deliberately designed for booby trapping.

Even more fun have been the various impact detonating fuses for hand grenades - Breda made a particularly amusing type that would sometimes detonate on impact, sometimes a bit later, sometimes when the grenade was next moved and sometimes never. There was no realistic way of telling in advance what exactly would happen when you threw one...

GWJ 01-06-2020 10:13 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

I know, but I completely don't know how to assess this bounces - how far etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

Yeah, but eg. throwing grenade for someone's house (through a window, open door etc.), bunker, or something like that...

Fred Brackin 01-06-2020 10:40 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel (Post 2303349)
...and not just in GURPS it must be said. As for unreliable fuses, according to Ian Hogg Japanese grenade fuses captured during WW2 were so variable that some of them were effectively on a 0 second delay although other opinion thinks those may have been deliberately designed for booby trapping.

Did he include the part where the fuse had to be ignited by banging one end of the grenade on a hard surface? Or that sometimes the only hard surface available was the user's helmet?

johndallman 01-06-2020 11:17 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

The classic British Number 36M grenade was issued unfused. The fuses came in two varieties, 4 seconds and 7 seconds, and it was necessary to fuse the grenade before they were usable.
Quote:

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.
They're extremely useful if you can sneak up on a fortified position unnoticed. Posting one into a pillbox opening works just fine: the fortification works in both directions.


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