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Ewan 02-28-2021 06:30 AM

Realm Management
 
With GURPS Realm Management expected to be released in March (GURPS News email) I was wondering what would I expect to be in it. Thanks

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 12:54 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2369436)
With GURPS Realm Management expected to be released in March (GURPS News email) I was wondering what would I expect to be in it. Thanks

That's not a simple question. There is a lot in it.

One thing I've been saying over and over and over to try and manage expectations is this: It is a roleplaying tool much like Mass Combat or Boardrooms and Curia. When I was coming up with the system I made a hard design choice that it would not be a economic simulator nor would it be a "bean-counting" system. It's meant to give players whose characters are "in charge" (for whatever that means) a method to see how well they are doing ruling.

It does describe a realm in a "character sheet" format. It has stats for things like how educated the general populous is or what the infrastructure is like or how wealthy it is. But those are just a few things. There is lots more information describing a realm since it interacts with the conflict-resolution system for realms (which is called "The Wheel") as well as other events.

That's really all that can be said at the moment without more targeted questions.

Shostak 02-28-2021 01:14 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369466)
It does describe a realm in a "character sheet" format. It has stats for things like how educated the general populous is or what the infrastructure is like or how wealthy it is. But those are just a few things. There is lots more information describing a realm since it interacts with the conflict-resolution system for realms (which is called "The Wheel") as well as other events.

Chris, are you at liberty to say whether or not Realm Management's gears mesh with GURPS City Stats?

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 01:29 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2369467)
Chris, are you at liberty to say whether or not Realm Management's gears mesh with GURPS City Stats?

I reference it here and there. I borrowed some mechanics and expanded on them for certain things like Military Resources for realms


P.S. I always use my full name, never my familiar one. Or you can call me C.R.. So Christopher or C.R., please. :-)

Shostak 02-28-2021 01:48 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369471)
I reference it here and there. I borrowed some mechanics and expanded on them for certain things like Military Resources for realms


P.S. I always use my full name, never my familiar one. Or you can call me C.R.. So Christopher or C.R., please. :-)

Cool--looking forward to the release. Thanks, Christopher!

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 02:29 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2369475)
Cool--looking forward to the release. Thanks, Christopher!

Me too. It was the hardest thing I've done to date and it took almost 2 years from inception to release so I hope people enjoy it and use it in their games. :-)

Ewan 02-28-2021 03:09 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Thanks Christopher, so I guess I won’t need to create massive Excel spreadsheets to play the game.
Will it cover various tech levels so I can use it for modern or sci fi games as well as medieval. Thanks

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 03:29 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2369482)
Thanks Christopher, so I guess I won’t need to create massive Excel spreadsheets to play the game.

No...gawd no. That was one of the things I tried to keep in mind as I wrote the system. I wanted it to mimic GURPS play if possible. I wanted to frontload realm creation and then make running the realm something that could be done in 5 to 10 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2369482)
Will it cover various tech levels so I can use it for modern or sci fi games as well as medieval. Thanks

It is nominally able to cover any genre, any TL, any game. There are examples in the back for fantasy, sci-fi, and post-apocalypse.

If the book does well I have ideas for follow-ups that will get into more edge cases that I removed from the main book for being, well, edge cases.

awesomenessofme1 02-28-2021 04:01 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
One thing I've been wondering when I've been thinking of possible uses: How much does it scale up and down? Could it be used for a TL0 hunter-gather band of a few dozen people? How about a galactic empire with a population of trillions?

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 04:14 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 (Post 2369487)
One thing I've been wondering when I've been thinking of possible uses: How much does it scale up and down? Could it be used for a TL0 hunter-gather band of a few dozen people? How about a galactic empire with a population of trillions?

Yes. It scales. The lowest is a single village and its surrounding lands while the highest is a galaxy and its planets. You could probably go up more for something like an intergalactic empire, but scaling downward is tougher.

fwcain 02-28-2021 04:54 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
What format will it be available in? PDF? Hardcopy? Or both?

And congrats! ;-)

Thanks,
Franklin

Christopher R. Rice 02-28-2021 04:59 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fwcain (Post 2369492)
What format will it be available in? PDF? Hardcopy? Or both?

PDF far as I know. It'd have to do insanely well to get a hard copy - that's just a guess mind you I have no control over those sorts of things. I just write (hopefully) fun stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwcain (Post 2369492)
And congrats! ;-)

Thanks!

Ewan 03-01-2021 10:29 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369485)
No...gawd no. That was one of the things I tried to keep in mind as I wrote the system. I wanted it to mimic GURPS play if possible. I wanted to frontload realm creation and then make running the realm something that could be done in 5 to 10 minutes.



It is nominally able to cover any genre, any TL, any game. There are examples in the back for fantasy, sci-fi, and post-apocalypse.

If the book does well I have ideas for follow-ups that will get into more edge cases that I removed from the main book for being, well, edge cases.

Thanks Christopher, I think you’ve answered all my questions but I may come back with some after I buy it (which by my reckoning if released in March should be the 25th, just in time for the Easter weekend the following week).

Christopher R. Rice 03-01-2021 10:40 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2369553)
Thanks Christopher, I think you’ve answered all my questions but I may come back with some after I buy it (which by my reckoning if released in March should be the 25th, just in time for the Easter weekend the following week).

No problem, I want to see it released too - even if this book has me dealing with imposter syndrome hard. It was years of work and I really hope folks like it.

Been 03-01-2021 12:20 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Does it model things like civil unrest, such as civil wars or opponent political factions

Christopher R. Rice 03-01-2021 02:48 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Been (Post 2369579)
Does it model things like civil unrest, such as civil wars or opponent political factions

In broad strokes, yes.

Been 03-01-2021 03:22 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
What sort of actions are involved in The Wheel?

Haseri 03-01-2021 03:39 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Really looking forward to it!

Will it be usable as a sort of story-generating tool, especially in the background, like the Faction system in Stars Without Number?

Christopher R. Rice 03-01-2021 03:41 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Been (Post 2369619)
What sort of actions are involved in The Wheel?

Can't really go into that, but it's inspired by the GURPS Lite combat engine. Simple, but robust. It has things like "Negotiate" or "Marshal Manpower" as actions you can perform for the realm.

Christopher R. Rice 03-01-2021 03:41 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Haseri (Post 2369620)
Really looking forward to it!

Will it be usable as a sort of story-generating tool, especially in the background, like the Faction system in Stars Without Number?

Never heard of it. Again, it's main role is to providing a roleplaying tool for PCs to run realms (whatever that may be).

Been 03-02-2021 04:21 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
How well does it gel with Mass Combat, does it give you how much you can spend on troops or is it more abstract?

Luke Bunyip 03-02-2021 05:06 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Must say, this latest impending offering could be rather useful. Can already envisage saddling my PCs with a small settlement to manage. What could go wrong?

Q: Christopher, how useful will it be for GMs running a campaign that's centred on a settlement?

Been 03-02-2021 05:10 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
I must admit I am looking forward to doing a more political campaign using this system

Christopher R. Rice 03-02-2021 10:40 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Been (Post 2369673)
How well does it gel with Mass Combat, does it give you how much you can spend on troops or is it more abstract?

It was written with Mass Combat in mind from the very bones of the supplement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip (Post 2369679)
Must say, this latest impending offering could be rather useful. Can already envisage saddling my PCs with a small settlement to manage. What could go wrong?

Q: Christopher, how useful will it be for GMs running a campaign that's centred on a settlement?

Yes. It could be useful for running the settlement itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Been (Post 2369680)
I must admit I am looking forward to doing a more political campaign using this system

It would help if by political campaign you mean running a kingdom, otherwise probably not.

Been 03-02-2021 11:20 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369725)
It was written with Mass Combat in mind from the very bones of the supplement.



Yes. It could be useful for running the settlement itself.



It would help if by political campaign you mean running a kingdom, otherwise probably not.

I have had an ideal for something in an Anglo-Saxon style kingdoms campaign, after some other campaigns lol

Juan 03-02-2021 12:20 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
I will buy It. I want to play an After the End campaign where the settlement, with its dwellers, is almost a NPC.

Christopher R. Rice 03-02-2021 04:45 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Been (Post 2369728)
I have had an ideal for something in an Anglo-Saxon style kingdoms campaign, after some other campaigns lol

Neat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 2369733)
I will buy It. I want to play an After the End campaign where the settlement, with its dwellers, is almost a NPC.

I hope lots of people do that. (Buying it that is.) True story, I started really working on a framework after I tried to do a post apocalyptic campaign and realized I didn't have any good options for settlement buildings. It's why I included a PA example in the book. :-)

One thing I'd like to eventually explore is a book on making things more cinematic or more realistic. Realm Management is like GURPS itself - it walks a middle line. I think a short supplement offering rules and advice to GMs and players alike would be useful for this.

Juan 03-03-2021 11:46 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369781)
Neat.



I hope lots of people do that. (Buying it that is.) True story, I started really working on a framework after I tried to do a post apocalyptic campaign and realized I didn't have any good options for settlement buildings. It's why I included a PA example in the book. :-)

One thing I'd like to eventually explore is a book on making things more cinematic or more realistic. Realm Management is like GURPS itself - it walks a middle line. I think a short supplement offering rules and advice to GMs and players alike would be useful for this.

That sounds pretty cool. Eager to read It.
The short "styles" supplement looks like a good idea as well. It is not always east to ver the exact tone you need / want.

Best wishes for the project.

Christopher R. Rice 03-03-2021 11:54 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 2369896)
That sounds pretty cool. Eager to read It.
The short "styles" supplement looks like a good idea as well. It is not always east to ver the exact tone you need / want.

Best wishes for the project.

Thanks, we'll see it soon I hope. It took up about 2 years of time from start to finish at this point. Maybe a bit more, but I had a lot of personal emergencies pop up all at once right after I started the first draft so I'd have to look to see the exact times.

Refplace 03-03-2021 12:37 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2369900)
Thanks, we'll see it soon I hope. It took up about 2 years of time from start to finish at this point. Maybe a bit more, but I had a lot of personal emergencies pop up all at once right after I started the first draft so I'd have to look to see the exact times.

Should be next month per the latest published rumor.

Christopher R. Rice 03-03-2021 03:22 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2369906)
Should be next month per the latest published rumor.

I hope that's when it releases, but I believes it when I sees it.

Ewan 03-25-2021 01:30 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Fingers crossed 🤞 that it gets released today as last Thursday of the month is usually the release date of new GURPS stuff in PDF.

Ewan 03-25-2021 02:38 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
And it’s out, need to get it bought, downloaded and read 😀

Juan 03-25-2021 02:51 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Got it!

Hope I get some spare time to read it all. 52 pages, no less! (46 meaty pages plus Contents, Index et al).

Looks like I am going to enjoy it. I will share my thoughts (and maybe any doubt I come with) in the near future.

RedMattis 03-25-2021 03:00 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Bought it. Will give it a proper read later.

Looks promising based on a quick skim through it.

Christopher R. Rice 03-25-2021 03:21 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
It is indeed out. :-) Hope y'all like it. Hope I managed your expectations of what it is and what it is not well enough that no one is disappointed.

Dragondog 03-25-2021 04:08 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Bought it as soon as I saw it was out.

cupbearer 03-25-2021 05:08 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2373037)
It is indeed out. :-) Hope y'all like it. Hope I managed your expectations of what it is and what it is not well enough that no one is disappointed.

Just reading it — looks amazing, good job!

SolemnGolem 03-25-2021 05:34 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
This will definitely scratch my Birthright itch!

Christopher R. Rice 03-25-2021 06:30 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragondog (Post 2373039)
Bought it as soon as I saw it was out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cupbearer (Post 2373046)
Just reading it — looks amazing, good job!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolemnGolem (Post 2373048)
This will definitely scratch my Birthright itch!

Thanks, guys!

Don't forget to rate GURPS Realm Management after you've read it for those who bought it. They look at that data more than social media or forum posts. Though they do look at those too.

Philomath 03-26-2021 12:53 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
After not having logged in here for over four years I come back from the dead to say Damn Good Job! You really hit it out of the park with this one. Congratulations to you and the whole team which made this happen!

I can't decide if Boardroom and Curia is the perfect compliment to Realm Management or if Realm Management is the perfect compliment to Boardroom and Curia.

Kage2020 03-26-2021 01:04 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Yeah, I threw my money at the screen as soon as I saw it was released.

I've spent the last few years exploring other generic systems in the hopes of achieving a given result. Recently, however, I found myself going "Well, there's GURPS supplement that would allow me to do this..."

Now there's another GURPS supplement that allows me to do that.

Right, now I need to make an underground ersatz settlement with mystical protections and see how it works out. :D

Christopher R. Rice 03-26-2021 01:14 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philomath (Post 2373094)
After not having logged in here for over four years I come back from the dead to say Damn Good Job! You really hit it out of the park with this one. Congratulations to you and the whole team which made this happen!

Thank you so much. This means a lot to me. This book was like a stone around my neck for a long time (I started it in June 2018) and the hardest thing I've written to date. Y'all's reception of it just makes me positively giddy. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philomath (Post 2373094)
I can't decide if Boardroom and Curia is the perfect compliment to Realm Management or if Realm Management is the perfect compliment to Boardroom and Curia.

Matt's work influenced me greatly. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to make sure the existing framework for Boardrooms and Curia could work for the Wheel. It needs a little bit of work for full compatibly, but I've left all the pieces there for GMs. Just needs a little assembly. If this does well I have several smaller books I want to pitch using the framework and expanding it a bit. But that's a job for the future after we see how well it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kage2020 (Post 2373095)
Yeah, I threw my money at the screen as soon as I saw it was released.

:-)

Ewan 03-26-2021 01:30 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Read part of it last night and I like what I’m reading.
It is a meaty supplement but think once I get into it and generate a couple of realms it should be straight forward.
Thanks Christopher for writing it.

Christopher R. Rice 03-26-2021 02:10 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2373097)
Read part of it last night and I like what I’m reading.
It is a meaty supplement but think once I get into it and generate a couple of realms it should be straight forward.

It's dense, I'll give you that. I hope not too crunchy. I tried to make it so it's accessible at the table since it's a roleplaying tool even though it brings its own mechanics to the table.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewan (Post 2373097)
Thanks Christopher for writing it.

Thank you for supporting me as a writer and coming here to tell others about it. :-)

Michele 03-26-2021 04:14 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Just scrolled through my comp copy. I can't wait to create a few examples. What I can say now is that the finished product delivers more than what the playtest already seemed to promise.
Well done, thank you.

Jürgen Hubert 03-26-2021 04:45 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philomath (Post 2373094)
After not having logged in here for over four years I come back from the dead to say Damn Good Job! You really hit it out of the park with this one. Congratulations to you and the whole team which made this happen!

I likewise came in after a long absence to voice my approval. I only wish I'd had it some six years ago - I ran a rather lengthy GURPS campaign that heavily focused on realm management. But, alas, GURPS Realm Management didn't exist back then, so we had to use the Pathfinder Kingdom Building Rules instead. Which... weren't a great fit.

I'll be looking forward to reports how this system works in practice with great interest.

Philomath 03-26-2021 05:09 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert (Post 2373108)
I likewise came in after a long absence to voice my approval. I only wish I'd had it some six years ago

I could have used it just six months ago, and six months before that, and . . . I tend to play games where this sort of thing is a staple. I've never been quite happy with anything I've cobbled together or translated from other systems but this ticks like 90% of my boxes. I'm doing a second closer read and actually using the rules so I'm betting that goes up a few points.

Pbuckley 03-26-2021 08:57 AM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Well crap I have been working on something like this for a bit over half a year now...

Could I use this to approximate a game of Birthright but for GURPS?

Refplace 03-26-2021 03:27 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philomath (Post 2373109)
I've never been quite happy with anything I've cobbled together or translated from other systems but this ticks like 90% of my boxes. I'm doing a second closer read and actually using the rules so I'm betting that goes up a few points.

I'm sure the author would love to know what boxes it doesn't tick for helpful ideas for a possible future supplement.

Christopher R. Rice 03-26-2021 04:03 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michele (Post 2373106)
Just scrolled through my comp copy. I can't wait to create a few examples. What I can say now is that the finished product delivers more than what the playtest already seemed to promise.
Well done, thank you.

You were super helpful when I was writing it, Michele. Thank you. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pbuckley (Post 2373123)
Could I use this to approximate a game of Birthright but for GURPS?

Probably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2373187)
I'm sure the author would love to know what boxes it doesn't tick for helpful ideas for a possible future supplement.

Always interested in stuff where I may have missed something obvious or something that can go into a later book.

Michael Thayne 03-26-2021 05:44 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
I was also a playtester and it's quite satisfying to see how the book improved from playtest to publication.

One thing I'm kicking myself for not thinking of during the playtest—the mechanics for the Threaten action are interesting, but feel like they have some potential to produce illogical results—particularly if multiple small nations "gang up" on a much bigger one. I'm not sure that, say, simply applying the difference in realm size as a modifier to the quick contest is the right solution—it sometimes makes sense for small nations to punch well above their weight class in international diplomacy. Maybe some penalty for repeatedly threatening round after round and never making good on your threats? Not sure.

Christopher R. Rice 03-26-2021 05:58 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2373217)
I was also a playtester and it's quite satisfying to see how the book improved from playtest to publication.

One thing I'm kicking myself for not thinking of during the playtest—the mechanics for the Threaten action are interesting, but feel like they have some potential to produce illogical results—particularly if multiple small nations "gang up" on a much bigger one. I'm not sure that, say, simply applying the difference in realm size as a modifier to the quick contest is the right solution—it sometimes makes sense for small nations to punch well above their weight class in international diplomacy. Maybe some penalty for repeatedly threatening round after round and never making good on your threats? Not sure.

I'd probably just say each nation adds a +1 myself. And yeah, this is something I could have elaborated on more if I had the space (which I didn't really).

Michael Thayne 03-26-2021 07:05 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2373222)
I'd probably just say each nation adds a +1 myself. And yeah, this is something I could have elaborated on more if I had the space (which I didn't really).

This isn't a bad idea, but there's also the issue of one tiny nation using Threaten on a great power while one or more of its friends take more concrete actions against the great power on the same turn—especially if the tiny nation's leader has a high Intimidate skill for some reason. Narratively, I don't see anything wrong with that trick working once to represent a feint or distraction, but you'd think the bigger power would wise up eventually.

And like I said, I don't mind small nations being able to sometimes punch above their weight class in international diplomacy. Lots of international organizations use a "one member state, one vote" rule that ignores differences in population, GDP, etc. And single member of a group of loosely-allied nations can engage on saber-rattling on its own in a way that a province of a big nation can't. It's just that as-written Threaten seems to go overboard in that direction.

SolemnGolem 03-26-2021 07:16 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pbuckley (Post 2373123)
Could I use this to approximate a game of Birthright but for GURPS?

If anything, Realm Management is even more flexible than BR. The Birthright system was very map-dependent, and you absolutely had to have an arbitrary map with arbitrary settlement and ley line numbers on it for the system to mean anything. RM goes beyond that to ask for cold hard vital statistics/demographics.

Also, I seem to recall that Birthright's system only gave you an arbitrary high limit of three regent actions per turn, no more. Realm Management seems to allow you more flexibility, with increasing penalties for the extras.

I'm still reading it through though.

Christopher R. Rice 03-26-2021 07:39 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne (Post 2373231)
This isn't a bad idea, but there's also the issue of one tiny nation using Threaten on a great power while one or more of its friends take more concrete actions against the great power on the same turn—especially if the tiny nation's leader has a high Intimidate skill for some reason. Narratively, I don't see anything wrong with that trick working once to represent a feint or distraction, but you'd think the bigger power would wise up eventually.

And like I said, I don't mind small nations being able to sometimes punch above their weight class in international diplomacy. Lots of international organizations use a "one member state, one vote" rule that ignores differences in population, GDP, etc. And single member of a group of loosely-allied nations can engage on saber-rattling on its own in a way that a province of a big nation can't. It's just that as-written Threaten seems to go overboard in that direction.

Mmm. Maybe. I still like the version we got. It is the best of both worlds I think. Let me think on it some.

Philomath 03-26-2021 09:57 PM

Re: GURPS Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace (Post 2373187)
I'm sure the author would love to know what boxes it doesn't tick for helpful ideas for a possible future supplement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2373193)
Always interested in stuff where I may have missed something obvious or something that can go into a later book.

Just things which are already known (e.g., Boardroom & Curia compatibility pre-assembled, etc.) Keep in mind that no creative work can ever be 100%. Hitting 70% -- 80% of an individual's preferences is no mean feat (more so if it's most individuals). Hitting 90% is noteworthy.

If I should come up with something Mr. Rice can use I'll throw them at him and see what sticks. After all, I don't have time to write them for publication so the least I can do is pass them along for consideration to those that do.

ericthered 03-29-2021 11:17 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
I can't find an equivalent clause to city stats page 12 where drawing more than 4% revenue came with the risk of permanently damaging your monthly income. Was that dropped from realm management, or did I miss something?

maximara 03-29-2021 02:57 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2373539)
I can't find an equivalent clause to city stats page 12 where drawing more than 4% revenue came with the risk of permanently damaging your monthly income. Was that dropped from realm management, or did I miss something?

From a logical stand point such spending doesn't effect Realms in the same way it effects cities.

Modern governments spend far in excess of their revenue to keep things moving along. As long as they don't go print happy with their fiat money everything is good. Heck, England is still repaying the debt it racked up in the 1700s!

The last time the US was debt free was in the 1840s. Debt spending was one of the tools used to fight the Great Depression and WWII for many nations.

Ulzgoroth 03-29-2021 03:33 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2373569)
From a logical stand point such spending doesn't effect Realms in the same way it effects cities.

Modern governments spend far in excess of their revenue to keep things moving along. As long as they don't go print happy with their fiat money everything is good. Heck, England is still repaying the debt it racked up in the 1700s!

The last time the US was debt free was in the 1840s. Debt spending was one of the tools used to fight the Great Depression and WWII for many nations.

The viability of that depends rather a lot on the monetary and financial systems involved, at a minimum. I'm pretty sure Realm Management also covers settings where fiat currency is unlikely to be accepted and moneylenders aren't always eager to acquire sovereign debt. (Some modern 'realms' may experience similar conditions too - poorer countries can have very different relations with creditors than the US or UK.)

Christopher R. Rice 03-29-2021 04:23 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2373539)
I can't find an equivalent clause to city stats page 12 where drawing more than 4% revenue came with the risk of permanently damaging your monthly income. Was that dropped from realm management, or did I miss something?

I didn't include it. You could if you wanted to. I found it a tad too fussy.

Tyneras 03-29-2021 04:32 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2373569)
From a logical stand point such spending doesn't effect Realms in the same way it effects cities.

Modern governments spend far in excess of their revenue to keep things moving along. As long as they don't go print happy with their fiat money everything is good. Heck, England is still repaying the debt it racked up in the 1700s!

The last time the US was debt free was in the 1840s. Debt spending was one of the tools used to fight the Great Depression and WWII for many nations.

Debt and Taxes (drawing revenue) are very different beasts. Debt is ultimately just another expense, like road maintenance, and only becomes a serious issue when debt payments start seriously impairing your ability to pay for other things. Very high taxes can directly depress economic activity, which leads to higher taxes collecting less revenue, regardless of debt level. The simplified version is the Laffer curve, which basically says in a specific system there is a level of taxation that produces maximum revenue, and going above or below that results in lower revenue.

maximara 03-30-2021 08:42 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyneras (Post 2373592)
Debt and Taxes (drawing revenue) are very different beasts. Debt is ultimately just another expense, like road maintenance, and only becomes a serious issue when debt payments start seriously impairing your ability to pay for other things. Very high taxes can directly depress economic activity, which leads to higher taxes collecting less revenue, regardless of debt level. The simplified version is the Laffer curve, which basically says in a specific system there is a level of taxation that produces maximum revenue, and going above or below that results in lower revenue.

It all depends on where the higher taxes are aimed. For example during the Great Depression the highest tier of taxes was 63% increased until it hit 91% in 1944, went up to 92% for 1952 and 1953 and then back down to 91% 1964.

The time of 1946-1964 are generally regarded as the peek economic activity of the United States and the reason was simple - CEOs and those below them wanted to keep below that punishing 91% income tax bracket and so the net profit went elsewhere - into the company and the pockets of the workers. When those high taxes were reduced things slowly started to go pear shaped.

ericthered 03-30-2021 09:01 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2373586)
I didn't include it. You could if you wanted to. I found it a tad too fussy.

Thanks for confirming that. I can certainly see it being fussy with the given system, as so many things are built on the back of the base realm value. I wonder what can be done to make it less fussy?


Now I'm looking around for ways to keep realm rulers from hiking up the tax rate to 30% any chance they get. Sure, you can use social pressure from the taxed to convince them not to, but historically once you tax beyond a certain point you're impeding the ability of people to operate a proper economy, or even to feed themselves (see Robin Hood stories).


The roll feels important to me mostly because it was the center of a realm-management-ish game I ran using city stats. Every (in-game) month the PCs overspent, and every month we had this tense session where I summed up the last months of events and actions, and gave small bonuses to the roll. Then at the end, someone rolled, and we got to saw if they'd reduced their resources by 10%. If it wasn't for that roll, I'm sure they would have raised taxes early on, so I'm looking for a similar brake in realm management. (It was a fresh banestorm game, so things happened every month, and we only played about a year).



Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2373569)
From a logical stand point such spending doesn't effect Realms in the same way it effects cities.

Modern governments spend far in excess of their revenue to keep things moving along...

I'm going to disagree that realms and cities are fundamentally different when it comes to taxation rates. Realms are generalization of cities.



That realm spending can never be too high... There are counter examples to that. Certainly, you can use various tricks to add revenue, shuffle around where it comes from, and so forth, but in the end you're just stoking flames and redistributing wealth. You can overburden an economy that way just as effectively as through direct taxes.



Note that the Revenue factor isn't the same as the total tax rate for a society. Taxes that pay for the upkeep and maintenance of existing infrastructure aren't included in it, and I suspect school salaries aren't either. Unless you're currently upgrading your education system.



As for what the "overburden number" is... that probably is TL dependent, and there is likely some variance from realm to realm as well.

Christopher R. Rice 03-30-2021 05:48 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2373672)
Thanks for confirming that. I can certainly see it being fussy with the given system, as so many things are built on the back of the base realm value. I wonder what can be done to make it less fussy?

Fussy was probably the wrong word - I take that back (and sorry, Bill!). It was too high resolution. It was excluded for the same reason as I excluded population growth from the main book. It absolutely is something that is important to this sort of supplement . . . but it's not something easily done. It's why I decided to include it here. I'm sure folks will come up with rules of their own for these things and I'd love to include them in a follow-up(s).


Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2373672)
Now I'm looking around for ways to keep realm rulers from hiking up the tax rate to 30% any chance they get. Sure, you can use social pressure from the taxed to convince them not to, but historically once you tax beyond a certain point you're impeding the ability of people to operate a proper economy, or even to feed themselves (see Robin Hood stories).

This is where the roleplaying part of this supplement kicks in me thinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2373672)
The roll feels important to me mostly because it was the center of a realm-management-ish game I ran using city stats. Every (in-game) month the PCs overspent, and every month we had this tense session where I summed up the last months of events and actions, and gave small bonuses to the roll. Then at the end, someone rolled, and we got to saw if they'd reduced their resources by 10%. If it wasn't for that roll, I'm sure they would have raised taxes early on, so I'm looking for a similar brake in realm management. (It was a fresh banestorm game, so things happened every month, and we only played about a year).

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with to simulate something like this. Nothing I did really worked or was too complex or was both.

ericthered 04-05-2021 10:23 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice (Post 2373749)
I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with to simulate something like this. Nothing I did really worked or was too complex or was both.

Looking at the book, I'd probably keep the Finance roll, with a modifier, at the end of each turn. The exact "overburden" number would be different from campaign to campaign, based mostly on Tech Level.

A failed Finance roll would be treated as a disruption. It would give -10% revenue each turn until fixed, which would probably be an improve maneuver costing 50% of the realm value (or maybe 100%). If you have two standing Finance failures, add them instead of multiplying them. Adding an immediate effect like mass protests or shortages may also be appropriate.

I don't see this as too fiddly, but I also see it as being part of my core game-play loop, which means it can bear more resolution.

whswhs 04-05-2021 02:05 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2373569)
From a logical stand point such spending doesn't effect Realms in the same way it effects cities.

The cities in City Stats are modeled primarily as independent city states, and as such would be considered Realms. By intent the rules there ARE rules for Realms.

But note that the MBF is not primarily an amount of money. GURPS works in terms of "real dollars," that is, in terms of a nominal monetary unit that bears a constant proportion to economic output in real goods and services; a GURPS $ equates to a nominal cash value of $1 in the early 2000s, but of $0.10 right after World War II. So the question of military budgeting is one of how large a proportion of real output you are diverting from civilian functions (necessities of life for the labor force, and capital maintenance for businesses) to military activities.

Breaking windows may get the glazier some extra income, but the owners of the buildings would have spent the money on something else if they didn't have to replace the windows; the net effect is a decrease in wealth.

Christopher R. Rice 04-05-2021 05:42 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered (Post 2374447)
Looking at the book, I'd probably keep the Finance roll, with a modifier, at the end of each turn. The exact "overburden" number would be different from campaign to campaign, based mostly on Tech Level.

A failed Finance roll would be treated as a disruption. It would give -10% revenue each turn until fixed, which would probably be an improve maneuver costing 50% of the realm value (or maybe 100%). If you have two standing Finance failures, add them instead of multiplying them. Adding an immediate effect like mass protests or shortages may also be appropriate.

I don't see this as too fiddly, but I also see it as being part of my core game-play loop, which means it can bear more resolution.

Interesting. Hmmm.

maximara 04-05-2021 07:04 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2374474)
The cities in City Stats are modeled primarily as independent city states, and as such would be considered Realms. By intent the rules there ARE rules for Realms.

But note that the MBF is not primarily an amount of money. GURPS works in terms of "real dollars," that is, in terms of a nominal monetary unit that bears a constant proportion to economic output in real goods and services; a GURPS $ equates to a nominal cash value of $1 in the early 2000s, but of $0.10 right after World War II. So the question of military budgeting is one of how large a proportion of real output you are diverting from civilian functions (necessities of life for the labor force, and capital maintenance for businesses) to military activities.

What I mean (and admittedly poorly explained) is that this falls apart when you get past the city state level.

For example, you have Detroit in the Realm of Wayne County which is in the Realm of Michigan which is in the Realm of the United States. Detroit has been an economic basket case even when some of those realm it was in weren't.

The various State Realms have to balance their budgets while the United States can spend like a drunken sailor racking up debt as long as the world has confidence in its currency.

edk926 04-05-2021 07:16 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
City, county, and states can rack up debts too. Chicago itself is billions in debt now, and the state of Illinois is too. As long as people are willing to loan them money and not demand the loans back, they can continue to rack up the debts.

whswhs 04-05-2021 10:01 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2374507)
What I mean (and admittedly poorly explained) is that this falls apart when you get past the city state level.

For example, you have Detroit in the Realm of Wayne County which is in the Realm of Michigan which is in the Realm of the United States. Detroit has been an economic basket case even when some of those realm it was in weren't.

The various State Realms have to balance their budgets while the United States can spend like a drunken sailor racking up debt as long as the world has confidence in its currency.

Detroit didn't get there by going to war with a budget exceeding a certain fraction of its productive output.

Michele 04-06-2021 03:44 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2374507)
What I mean (and admittedly poorly explained) is that this falls apart when you get past the city state level.

For example, you have Detroit in the Realm of Wayne County which is in the Realm of Michigan which is in the Realm of the United States. Detroit has been an economic basket case even when some of those realm it was in weren't.

The various State Realms have to balance their budgets while the United States can spend like a drunken sailor racking up debt as long as the world has confidence in its currency.

I'm out of my depth here, but my impression is that what you are advocating is that realms can purchase, say, old destroyers in exchange of basing rights, or for a promise to pay for them some time in the future. They can even buy natural resource points from other realms, in order to spend them for improving their IR, against a promise to pay those points back in 36 turns.

All of that is advocating for free trade among realms - which is already allowed by the book as written. If the realm of the USA really believes that the realms of Great Britain and France will eventually win WWI, and that they will eventually pay their loans back, then it can lend the latter whatever resource or cash the US government is willing to offer, and the latter are free to borrow.

The MBF, as written, on the contrary, is based solely on how much you can and want to tax your citizens.

Admittedly, a government can also ask for loans from its own citizens; and, abroad, one could ask money not just from other governments, but also from those governments' citizens. I don't think that is covered in the book as of now. I suppose a Bluff (propaganda) would have to be successful, and the amount of credit gathered and the repayment terms would depend on Loyalty or Conformity (probably, whichever is lower) on the internal market, and on Resonance when it comes to foreign private citizens.

maximara 04-06-2021 03:48 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs (Post 2374519)
Detroit didn't get there by going to war with a budget exceeding a certain fraction of its productive output.

How about the United States in the 1940s? Despite all the Public Works projects it wasn't until the US formally got into WWII and military spending in relation to the budget went through the roof that the economy took off.

More over Military Spending in the US is half of discretionary spending. There are many areas where if anything happened to their military base they would be up financial cripple creak without paddle.

I personally saw the effects of a base temporally closing when my parents were looking for a place in New Mexico to retire - the town was barely functional.

ericthered 04-06-2021 09:51 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Tax rate is not the same thing as the revenue factor. Tax money that goes to pay for an existing school system isn't part of the revenue factor: its just part of the realm's economy. Conversely, printing new money can add to the realm's revenue factor, without it being a tax.

When I say a realm is overburdened, I mean that the resources directed to what the realm says are reducing the realm's economic output. It might mean that so much food has been taken that people are begining to starve. It might mean that the state is spending so much money that everyone else's money is devalued and they can't buy anything. It might mean that all of your smiths have been conscripted to build a wall by carrying around buckets of dirt. It might mean more and more of your people live a subsistence lifestyle. It might mean that you have chronic shortages of basic goods. All of these things have happened in history, quite often because a realm is pushing to do something really hard. Of course, that push may or may not be justified, and it has occasionally paid off.

The higher Tech a society, the more of a revenue burden it can bear. That's part of what makes total war so scary. But just as TL1 farmers who all go to war during harvest must either conquer or starve, TL8 societies still have limits.

All of this is not to claim that a reasonable, or even "high" tax rate can't be used to stimulate an economy. But there are limits, and governments that are not desperate and actually care about living in a country in 10 years don't tend to push them hard.

maximara 04-06-2021 02:36 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michele (Post 2374528)
I'm out of my depth here, but my impression is that what you are advocating is that realms can purchase, say, old destroyers in exchange of basing rights, or for a promise to pay for them some time in the future. They can even buy natural resource points from other realms, in order to spend them for improving their IR, against a promise to pay those points back in 36 turns.

Actually it is more the top most realm builds a base with in another smaller realm. That base employees people (in addition to the soldiers) who earn money which makes the that realm wealthier then it would be otherwise. This is why base closings within the US are so hard to do - in some cases they are all that is really keeping the town/county solvent.

Similarly US bases overseas results in those realms they are in themselves spending far less in Military Resources than they would otherwise have to spend.

Also its not just military spending but over inflated assets be it South Sea stock in England in the 1700's, 1920s US stock, 2009 US property or the shoe everyone is afraid will drop in China.

My late mother called it prosperity on a credit card and eventually the bubble bursts. In fact, for much of the 1800s the US seemed to have a major economic down turn brought on by either something internal outside its control.

Willy 04-06-2021 05:50 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2374610)
My late mother called it prosperity on a credit card and eventually the bubble bursts. In fact, for much of the 1800s the US seemed to have a major economic down turn brought on by either something internal outside its control.

Your mother was quite right, the main problem is as long as everyone believes it will go allright it does, until the first little problem comes up. That is why during Covid and the last finance crisis government worldwide did everything the could to drown the crisis in money, actually it works.

Another reason which is also a error is that governments of any size, from the small town up, can´t be insolvent. In fact since they own a large infrastructure and have other securities also they have steady income through taxes and the like, they are searched debtors. This works for both sides the government gets money with a low interest rate, and the money lender is quite sure he get´s it back. Of course this works only until a certain gearing is reached, and most western societies are far beyond that.


The reason for such shortsighted behavior is that the people who make the decissions and benefit from it will not be in offfice or even alive when the bottom of the barrel is reached. Typical terms I western society in politics are around 4 or 5 years, and it´s a common political advice to spend all the money now so that your successor is fairly crippled. A german minister of defense once said to his successor" Everything is ordered, you only have to pay for it!"

Michele 04-07-2021 02:23 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2374610)
Actually it is more the top most realm builds a base with in another smaller realm. That base employees people (in addition to the soldiers) who earn money which makes the that realm wealthier then it would be otherwise.

That's in-built in GURPS Realm Management. If in Zarthus there are citizens who are of Average, Comfortable etc. Wealth it's because the state is, as usual, the main employer, investor, buyer etc.

Indeed, note that a realm that has Traditional economy will find it hard to carry out a significant Improve maneuver over a short time. That's because half of its revenue is frozen in luxury goods. But a realm having most other types of economy can very well Improve the realm's Infrastructure or Education. That represents the state being the biggest investor, with positive effects on all aspects of its citizens' lives.

Quote:

Also its not just military spending but over inflated assets be it South Sea stock in England in the 1700's, 1920s US stock, 2009 US property or the shoe everyone is afraid will drop in China.
That's the drawback of a Capitalist economy, per p. 20.

Michele 04-07-2021 02:44 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Willy (Post 2374624)
Another reason which is also a error is that governments of any size, from the small town up, can´t be insolvent. In fact since they own a large infrastructure and have other securities also they have steady income through taxes and the like, they are searched debtors. This works for both sides the government gets money with a low interest rate, and the money lender is quite sure he get´s it back. Of course this works only until a certain gearing is reached, and most western societies are far beyond that.

Sorry to disagree. Realms can entirely well become insolvent. And being big and having plenty of gold mines in South America is no guarantee against that, as Philip II demonstrated.
It's true that generally, the debtors accept a restructuring of the debt, the latest big example being Argentina. But sometimes realms just default and the debtors lose everything, like in the Mississippi case in the 1840s.

Christopher R. Rice 04-07-2021 05:28 AM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michele (Post 2374669)
Sorry to disagree. Realms can entirely well become insolvent. And being big and having plenty of gold mines in South America is no guarantee against that, as Philip II demonstrated.
It's true that generally, the debtors accept a restructuring of the debt, the latest big example being Argentina. But sometimes realms just default and the debtors lose everything, like in the Mississippi case in the 1840s.

This is also reflected in the rules via Dissolution.

Willy 04-07-2021 04:56 PM

Re: Realm Management
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michele (Post 2374669)
Sorry to disagree. Realms can entirely well become insolvent. And being big and having plenty of gold mines in South America is no guarantee against that, as Philip II demonstrated.
It's true that generally, the debtors accept a restructuring of the debt, the latest big example being Argentina. But sometimes realms just default and the debtors lose everything, like in the Mississippi case in the 1840s.

Seems we have a misunderstanding. Of course they can! I wrote " Another reason which is also a ERROR is that governments of any size, from the small town up, can´t be insolvent" , not that they can´t get insovent. I have 2 dozen years of local politics under my belt, and I know from experience how short even, on the paper rich towns, are to this case, especially during the last finance crisis.


And yes it happens today, to quote myself "Of course this works only until a certain gearing is reached, and most western societies are far beyond that." the higher you are in debt, the more interest you normaly pay, which strangles even a healthy society after a certain time. Some western nation pay actually a reasonable part of their income only for the interest. By the way the overflow of gold and slver from themines crippled the main lands economy and triggered a inflation.


The spanish king you mention is a special case. This one fought long and costly wars during the whole time, and achieved not much. Even plenty of gold and silver from the colonies couldn´t rescue him, because of that.


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