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-   -   Martial Arts Style Talent (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169800)

maximara 08-15-2020 03:20 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338906)
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about stacking talent and wildcard skills.

What I meant was more like this:

There are no martial arts style talents currently priced. There are martial arts wildcard skills. From the wildcard skills, we know that 12/level is considered a fair price for 'improve your rolls at everything in the style by +1', so it seems like a reasonable starting point for figuring out how to price an equivalent talent that improves your rolls at everything in the style by +1.
There's definitely room for argument there. After some of the debate here I'm leaning toward a combination of 1) this isn't really what talents are for, but 2) if it is allowed, 10/level is probably closest to fair. Unlike the wildcard guy you're not getting all the free techniques and, as has been pointed out, 15/level is probably too much for a DX-focused talent even if you do consider the reaction bonus and training speed buffs as part of the value of the talent.

Ok I see. It doesn't help that we have two types of talents in the game: mundane talents and power talents.

I should mention we actually have pricing guidelines for mundane talents (Power-Ups 3 - Talents pg 4, 25):

Small (6 or fewer related skills): 5 points/level.
Medium (7 to 12 related skills): 10 points/level.
Large (13 or more related skills): 15 points/level.
Smooth (minimum 5 points): 1 point/level per skill affected.

The most expensive mundane talent (using smooth calculation) as of July 2011 is Beastmaster at 12/level.

You have to go to Power Talents to find one more expensive that that: Cosmic at 15/level and is effectively a defacto wildcard talent that covers every skill in the game! (Powers p. 124-125)

AlexanderHowl 08-15-2020 03:25 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
The Cosmic Talent only gives a bonus to abilities that possess the Cosmic (+50% or higher) enhancement, it does not give any bonuses to skills (unless they are power skills used for abilities).

kirbwarrior 08-15-2020 05:25 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2338938)
Ok I see. It doesn't help that we have two types of talents in the game: mundane talents and power talents.

I can't remember where in Powers but early in the book in touches upon how they don't have to be separate things. I actually like it when players take mundane talents as power talents, personally.

maximara 08-15-2020 08:40 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2338942)
The Cosmic Talent only gives a bonus to abilities that possess the Cosmic (+50% or higher) enhancement, it does not give any bonuses to skills (unless they are power skills used for abilities).

You are confusing the talent with the modifier - they are two different things.

"It doesn’t have a single focus – by definition, it deals with anything and everything – and the only countermeasure it faces is itself." (sic).

"Any advantage can be a Cosmic ability, as long as it has the Cosmic modifier." Advantage not skill.

"Talent with a power acts as a bonus to all success rolls against attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills to use the power’s abilities." (Powers p. 158)

None of those are advantages.

The highest other talents (Magery and Power Investitue) are 10/level which the +50% bonus would result in 15/level which is exactly what the Cosmic Talent has. This is the pricing that any talent that "encompass nearly anything (e.g., “Cosmic Talent”), or that otherwise transcends the normal limitations of source" has. (Powers p. 29)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior (Post 2338951)
I can't remember where in Powers but early in the book in touches upon how they don't have to be separate things. I actually like it when players take mundane talents as power talents, personally.

"This is similar to a mundane Talent (see p. B89), but instead of giving a bonus to skill rolls, it gives a bonus to all success rolls made to activate or use any of the power’s abilities Telepathy Talent 3 gives +3 to the IQ, Will, and Perception rolls to use telepathic abilities." (Powers p. 9)

So Power s explains that while similar mundane and power talents are different things. The best canonal example is "Mundane" Magery vs Magery (Ritual Path). The first adds to skill level the second does not. Of course Magery (Ritual Path) has issues because as written you should be able to go from normal magery to it via enchantments and limitations...but you don't know how.

AlexanderHowl 08-15-2020 08:59 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
The key phrase is 'to use the power's abilities'. In order for an ability to be under the Cosmic Talent, it must possess the Cosmic modifier, otherwise it is not part of the power. It also does nothing to give a bonus to non-ability attribute, secondary characteristic, skill, etc. rolls (like any power talent, it modifies most rolls to use its abilities). To read it otherwise is to suggest that a 15 CP talent can completely replace 60 CP worth of attributes.

maximara 08-15-2020 10:44 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2338972)
The key phrase is 'to use the power's abilities'. In order for an ability to be under the Cosmic Talent, it must possess the Cosmic modifier, otherwise it is not part of the power. It also does nothing to give a bonus to non-ability attribute, secondary characteristic, skill, etc. rolls (like any power talent, it modifies most rolls to use its abilities). To read it otherwise is to suggest that a 15 CP talent can completely replace 60 CP worth of attributes.

Never saw Magic Power at 40/level from Supers 1e which did the same blasted thing did you? And yes it was as insane as it sounds. But the same argument can be made of Wildcard Skills, Techniques (3x normal cost), Advantages (3x normal cost), Languages (3x normal cost), and Powers (4x normal cost). And then there are Template Wildcards and Ultimate templates

And if you want a total points bonanza try Wildcard Magery and College! sometime. As the GURPSwiki points out:

Unlike other forms of Magery which do not add to wildcard spells (GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills pg 16, 24) Wildcard Magery expressly does("Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology pg 75) . It is the only exception to the general rule that a Talent doesn’t improve skills covered by or defaulted to the wildcard. Because of this difference great care must be taken in allowing Wildcard Magery in a campaign.

Comparison Example
Morgan Silvercloak has IQ 15, Magery 2, and 12 points (attribute-1) in the Air College! skill . He therefore has Air College!-14, and can cast Purify Air at skill 14, Shape Air at 13, and Lightning at 12.

"Thaumaticus-Z6G has IQ 15, Wildcard Magery 2, and 12 points in the Air College! skill. He therefore has Air College!-16, and can cast Purify Air at skill 16, Shape Air at 15, and Lightning at 14." (Thaumatology pg 75)

Just because something can be a total point give me doesn't mean it isn't valid per the RAW.

AlexanderHowl 08-15-2020 11:19 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
By RAW, power talents explicitly only give bonuses to ability rolls, whether they involve attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills (Powers, p. 158). The Cosmic Talent specifically only gives bonuses to ability rolls for abilities with the Cosmic power modifier (Powers, 125). It does not benefit any roll except for those associated with abilities with the Cosmic modifier.

kirbwarrior 08-16-2020 12:36 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2338969)
So Power s explains that while similar mundane and power talents are different things.

Powers p29 talks about existing advantages as Talents, explicitly calling out Green Thumb as a usable power talent (and the incredibly silly idea for Status).

maximara 08-16-2020 08:39 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2338988)
By RAW, power talents explicitly only give bonuses to ability rolls, whether they involve attributes, secondary characteristics, or skills (Powers, p. 158). The Cosmic Talent specifically only gives bonuses to ability rolls for abilities with the Cosmic power modifier (Powers, 125). It does not benefit any roll except for those associated with abilities with the Cosmic modifier.

"Rubber Body: Double-Jointed [15] + Modular Abilities (Cosmic Power, 30 points; All-Out, -25%; Limited, Body Parts Only, -20%; Costs Fatigue, 1 FP/5 points, -15%; Physical, +50%; Requires HT Roll, -10%; Takes Extra Time 3, -30%) [150] + Stretching 5 [30]" (Power p. 151) shows that is not how the rule is read. If it was then Double-Jointed would have to be Cosmic as well and be [23] points not [15] and the same is true of Stretching 5 for [45] not the [30] we're given.

From GURPS Horror: Ancient One ... Energy Reserve 300 (Cosmic; Accessibility, Only where Euclidean geometry is weak and when the stars are right, -80%) [180] (Horror p. 74).

That is the only mention of cosmic in the write up. So if only things that themselves are Cosmic can be used with a Cosmic power than what in the sam hill good does that 300 Cosmic Energy Reserve do? The position you are presenting doesn't hold and is not supported by the examples I know of.

Given how badly Partially Limited Magery (the examples show the opposite of how one would normally read the rules; yeh it's that badly written) they really should have given us better examples of how the Comic talent works but instead we have plenty of examples of how the Comic modifier works

Celjabba 08-16-2020 08:50 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2339017)
+ Modular Abilities (Cosmic Power, 30 points; All-Out, -25%; Limited, Body Parts Only, -20%; Costs Fatigue, 1 FP/5 points, -15%; Physical, +50%; Requires HT Roll, -10%; Takes Extra Time 3, -30%) [150]

That is not a power with the "cosmic power modifier", it is the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power". (basic p71)

One of the worst name in the book, as it is extremely confusing !

Cosmic can be 3 separate things in Gurps :
-the variant of modular ability named "Cosmic Power"
-the power modifier "Cosmic"
-the rules breaking enhancement "Cosmic" (at the GM choice, it may also count as the power modifier "Cosmic" for free, but this is not mandatory)


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