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-   -   Martial Arts Style Talent (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169800)

ravenfish 08-13-2020 01:34 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338577)
If you start from the premise that a wildcard skill for the style (or for a profession in general, like 'Knight!') is valid, and remember that those ultimately settle on 12/level after the first couple, pricing it as a 12/level talent shouldn't break anything too badly.

Maybe bump it up to 15/level for the sake of pentaphilia, and attribute the extra points/level to the training and reaction bonuses.



For a style with all the skills based on DX (as many or most in the book are) I can't see paying 15 points for +1 to all its skills when 20 points would buy +1 to all DX-based skills and additional benefits besides. Throw in the cinematic skills (many of which are based on mental attributes) and I might begin to consider it, but that isn't an option in all campaigns.

Ejidoth 08-13-2020 01:38 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ravenfish (Post 2338578)
For a style with all the skills based on DX (as many or most in the book are) I can't see paying 15 points for +1 to all its skills when 20 points would buy +1 to all DX-based skills and additional benefits besides. Throw in the cinematic skills (many of which are based on mental attributes) and I might begin to consider it, but that isn't an option in all campaigns.

Depending on the campaign, DX 15+ may call for an Unusual Background to represent the sheer improbability, and DX 16+ may be considered physically impossible for most humans. DX over 20 almost certainly will be. So that may factor into the consideration.

You'd probably want to include some non-DX skills in this kind of talent, though, yeah.

Infornific 08-13-2020 08:17 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
There's a pretty lengthy discussion of the concept here from a few years back. Might be of interest.

kirbwarrior 08-13-2020 08:32 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338580)
Depending on the campaign, DX 15+ may call for an Unusual Background to represent the sheer improbability, and DX 16+ may be considered physically impossible for most humans. DX over 20 almost certainly will be. So that may factor into the consideration.

But that shouldn't be a consideration in the pricing of a talent because otherwise you'd effectively be telling the players they should buy DX15 before the talent (there's also the issue of having such a low cap on an attribute in a setting that would likely not have the points to back it up, but that's a whole other can of worms that doesn't need to be discussed here).

AlexanderHowl 08-13-2020 09:43 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
In general, I believe that weapon talents should only cover a group of related skills that default to each other, plus a single thematic skill. For example, a Sword Talent could easily cover Broadsword, Knife, Shortsword, and Two-handed Sword, as well as Shield, while a Fencing Talent could easily cover Main-Guache, Rapier, Saber, and Smallsword, as well as Shield (Buckler).

Ejidoth 08-13-2020 11:43 PM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior (Post 2338652)
But that shouldn't be a consideration in the pricing of a talent because otherwise you'd effectively be telling the players they should buy DX15 before the talent (there's also the issue of having such a low cap on an attribute in a setting that would likely not have the points to back it up, but that's a whole other can of worms that doesn't need to be discussed here).

Regarding 'such a low cap', I'm basing that on the guidelines from Template Toolkit 1 that describe 17-18 in an attribute as, like, either among the best in history or purely fictional, which strongly suggests nobody alive has more than 16. But that's a tangent, anyway.

10 points per level is probably fair price for this talent compared to attribute costs, really, but there's something about it that doesn't sit right with me. It feels like it's better to make it cost 15 and find some side-benefits to make it worth it.

kirbwarrior 08-14-2020 01:34 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338664)
10 points per level is probably fair price for this talent compared to attribute costs, really, but there's something about it that doesn't sit right with me. It feels like it's better to make it cost 15 and find some side-benefits to make it worth it.

That's always a cool idea. You could just slap on some 5pt/lvl trait (such as DR) to round it out.

Generally speaking, I find 10+pt cost talents to usually be overpriced. Attributes at 20pts cover 200+ skills each. One skill is 4pts. It's much more likely to be some sort of exponential growth instead of linear growth as the number grows.

Anders 08-14-2020 06:13 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2338575)
It might synerigize a little too well with the three Knightly Mounted Combat Martial Arts Styles (4e Magic Arts) especially in a cinematic campaign.

I mean, that was the point. Adding Power Blow and Kiai would raise the cost to 10 points, which may be fairer for a campaign that includes chi skills.

maximara 08-15-2020 09:20 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338577)
If you start from the premise that a wildcard skill for the style (or for a profession in general, like 'Knight!') is valid, and remember that those ultimately settle on 12/level after the first couple, pricing it as a 12/level talent shouldn't break anything too badly.

Maybe bump it up to 15/level for the sake of pentaphilia, and attribute the extra points/level to the training and reaction bonuses.

With the exception of Wildcard Magery ("Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology p. 75), a Talent does not improve skills covered by or defaulted to wildcard skill if both are allowed to exist. (GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16, 24)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ejidoth (Post 2338580)
Depending on the campaign, DX 15+ may call for an Unusual Background to represent the sheer improbability, and DX 16+ may be considered physically impossible for most humans. DX over 20 almost certainly will be. So that may factor into the consideration.

You'd probably want to include some non-DX skills in this kind of talent, though, yeah.

IMHO we should talk about ideas in a campaign "neutral" setting as each campaign is going to be its own thing and just muddies the waters.

Ejidoth 08-15-2020 10:16 AM

Re: Martial Arts Style Talent
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara (Post 2338899)
With the exception of Wildcard Magery ("Wildcard Colleges", Thaumatology p. 75), a Talent does not improve skills covered by or defaulted to wildcard skill if both are allowed to exist. (GURPS Power-Ups 7: Wildcard Skills p. 16, 24)

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wasn't talking about stacking talent and wildcard skills.

What I meant was more like this:

There are no martial arts style talents currently priced. There are martial arts wildcard skills. From the wildcard skills, we know that 12/level is considered a fair price for 'improve your rolls at everything in the style by +1', so it seems like a reasonable starting point for figuring out how to price an equivalent talent that improves your rolls at everything in the style by +1.
There's definitely room for argument there. After some of the debate here I'm leaning toward a combination of 1) this isn't really what talents are for, but 2) if it is allowed, 10/level is probably closest to fair. Unlike the wildcard guy you're not getting all the free techniques and, as has been pointed out, 15/level is probably too much for a DX-focused talent even if you do consider the reaction bonus and training speed buffs as part of the value of the talent.


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