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Drifter 05-06-2014 08:25 AM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scc (Post 1758728)
Drifter, you missed my point. If Gandhi was advocating peaceful methods when he was killed by some unknown third party, these peaceful methods might not see a 100% take up, groups will try using them, only to lash out when attacked, which could cause lots of problems for the US.

By 1933 Gandhi already had a large body of work that many people would continue to use. Many of his ideas where already present in the cultures of Britain and India, so they have to be dealt with to get to the point of violent groups. Maybe I shouldn't have said anti-Gandhi but a Twisted Gandhi, someone who took his organization of disobedience but warps it into a violent reaction. Not even warped - tradition Eastern martial arts are violent and designed to hurt people, but should be used only in self defense. Uncivil Disobedience could follow that tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgringo2001 (Post 1758747)
Gee, I thought Jesus and Buddha were pretty big names. Christian pacifism is a very old American tradition. It was a big factor in the Abolition movement of the 19th century, the Populist and Progressive movements, and the Prohibition movement, and, of course, the Civil Rights movement.

Big names but with lousy spokesmen. Gandhi was THE big advocate of pacifism, and taught how to make it actually work instead of just not fighting back when Da Man stomped you. Abolitionist-style pacifism in the West still works (in this alternate) but without Gandhi, or a relaunched Swaraj that centers of personal independence through violence, its not a driving force in this world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scc (Post 1758728)
New idea: Second Amendment one or another American president turns the tables on the militias and other gun owning groups, in accordance with the Second Amendment they MUST submit the government regulation or be disbanded

Possible. Gun control started with NRA support in the 30s. It was a reaction to the Civil Rights movement in the 60s that gun control became codified - to some small extent (no hate-mail please). It wasn't until the 70s it took the political focus it does today. So if you see increased violence starting in the 50s, an increasingly dictatorial government might use it to enforce a militia requirement.

Remember Randyman that current ideas on gun control and the NRA are relatively recent.

Drifter 05-06-2014 08:27 AM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astromancer (Post 1758755)
Doctor King and other Civil Rights workers came up with many of the non-violent resistance methods on there own. Also Gandhi's main ideas on non-violence were known in the late 1920's. Gandhi in this history would be as much a martyr as in our own.

If he is killed before he becomes an international symbol, or even before his works start giving big results in India, he is known but is more of a philosopher instead of a political figure. He'd be a martyr but with a less dedicated and more amorphous following.

Drifter 05-06-2014 12:24 PM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astromancer (Post 1758755)
Doctor King and other Civil Rights workers came up with many of the non-violent resistance methods on there own.

"A testament to the revolutionary power of nonviolence, Gandhi’s approach directly influenced Martin Luther King, Jr., who argued that the Gandhian philosophy was ‘‘the only morally and practically sound method open to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom’’"

From the Stanford website.

Astromancer 05-09-2014 02:38 PM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
On another tack with India. Suppose that a noble, favored by both George IV and Victoria, were to marry into the family of a Maharaja? If intermarrige between the high nobility of India and Britain became first acceptable then (because of the vast wealth) fashionable. Picture an British Empire with a powerful resurgent nobility and a total rejection of 19th century racism, but otherwise rather right-wing. It could be a lively, if low probability, world.

Certainly the Great Game would be wildly different.

scc 05-09-2014 03:12 PM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Astromancer, two effects I can see from that. The first is that eugenics never gets mixed up with racism in the UK and likely doesn't die at the end WW2. The other is that the British Empire never declines.

Depending on how you want to play things it could get very interesting, the BE could well have gene screening tech by the present day, putting genetic illness on a step decline

Flyndaran 05-09-2014 04:20 PM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astromancer (Post 1760089)
On another tack with India. Suppose that a noble, favored by both George IV and Victoria, were to marry into the family of a Maharaja? If intermarrige between the high nobility of India and Britain became first acceptable then (because of the vast wealth) fashionable. Picture an British Empire with a powerful resurgent nobility and a total rejection of 19th century racism, but otherwise rather right-wing. It could be a lively, if low probability, world.

Certainly the Great Game would be wildly different.

Why would racism stop? Wouldn't you just have racism against anyone not British white or Indian brown? And doubling down on classism/caste-ism?

scc 05-09-2014 04:33 PM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 1760131)
Why would racism stop? Wouldn't you just have racism against anyone not British white or Indian brown? And doubling down on classism/caste-ism?

Because Britain's multiculturalism will pre-date the rise of racism, people will reject it

tantric 05-10-2014 05:46 AM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astromancer (Post 1760089)
On another tack with India. Suppose that a noble, favored by both George IV and Victoria, were to marry into the family of a Maharaja? If intermarrige between the high nobility of India and Britain became first acceptable then (because of the vast wealth) fashionable. Picture an British Empire with a powerful resurgent nobility and a total rejection of 19th century racism, but otherwise rather right-wing. It could be a lively, if low probability, world.

Certainly the Great Game would be wildly different.

Are you particularly knowledgeable about India politics? If so, I'd like to pick your brain sometime for my own India timeline (actually, it's Daniken-1) where ancient Indians really did interact with aliens. After independence the saddhi and such that preserved bits of the knowledge come forward, giving India a tech boost (well - pulse jets and a few other things). I'd really like to see India and China ally and win a three-way cold war/space race when they find a well preserved abandoned Raman moon-base.

Drifter 05-10-2014 10:08 AM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scc (Post 1760137)
Because Britain's multiculturalism will pre-date the rise of racism, people will reject it

How and when did modern concepts of racism arise? It seems to me that it was firmly established by George IV's time IF you link ideas about race with the African slave trade. So maybe the change came earlier, effecting the British view of race so that by the time of George IV and Victoria you get a culture that isn't quite so racist and allows a darker skinned person to be treated as an equal.

Per wikipedia John Lok first brought Africans to England in 1555 - voluntary immigrants - with the purpose of teaching them English to start a trade relationship with West Africa. The rise of tobacco farming and later sugar plantations meant the colonies needed cheap labor. Somehow this labor was not supplied by African slaves, but co-opted native Americans. The West African trade did not concentrate on slavery but was lucrative in some other way. Ideas that darker skinned people where naturally inferior didn't take hold - they were trade partners in Africa, labor and political allies in the Americas.

This would take a comb-punch of maybe failures of the tobacco crops in the early American colonies. Or lack of demand - say tobacco gets the same reputation that early tomatoes did; they're poisonous so don't use them. Maybe associate them with witchcraft. The other punch would be a bump in West African trade. Both can be combined in a temporary shift in weather patterns - bad weather in North America, good weather in Africa, leads to stunted American colonies and more close association with native Africans who had been given a boost with Lok's help in facilitating trade.

tantric 05-10-2014 11:16 AM

Re: New Reality Seeds
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drifter (Post 1760384)
How and when did modern concepts of racism arise? It seems to me that it was firmly established by George IV's time IF you link ideas about race with the African slave trade. So maybe the change came earlier, effecting the British view of race so that by the time of George IV and Victoria you get a culture that isn't quite so racist and allows a darker skinned person to be treated as an equal.

Per wikipedia John Lok first brought Africans to England in 1555 - voluntary immigrants - with the purpose of teaching them English to start a trade relationship with West Africa. The rise of tobacco farming and later sugar plantations meant the colonies needed cheap labor. Somehow this labor was not supplied by African slaves, but co-opted native Americans. The West African trade did not concentrate on slavery but was lucrative in some other way. Ideas that darker skinned people where naturally inferior didn't take hold - they were trade partners in Africa, labor and political allies in the Americas.

This would take a comb-punch of maybe failures of the tobacco crops in the early American colonies. Or lack of demand - say tobacco gets the same reputation that early tomatoes did; they're poisonous so don't use them. Maybe associate them with witchcraft. The other punch would be a bump in West African trade. Both can be combined in a temporary shift in weather patterns - bad weather in North America, good weather in Africa, leads to stunted American colonies and more close association with native Africans who had been given a boost with Lok's help in facilitating trade.

For a LONG time religion played the role of race. There were black nobles in the Middle Ages in Europe - it was odd, but they were Christians. That same page have a link to a find of skeleton of a black African in 13th Century England.

The slave trade was an integral part of the Kongo Kingdom's economy long before European contact. There was a period before the destabilization when several kingdoms around that area grew very rich, but the end result was internecine warfare. Slavery really is a normal part of society at some technological levels (what else are you going to do with prisoners of war?). It was the weird coincidence of the African societies practicing low tech slavery and the development of plantation agriculture in the Americas that was so hateful. You had an industrial agarian society without a sufficient population base to drive it.


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