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-   -   Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=81728)

Gurps Fan 07-20-2011 11:09 PM

Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Anyone knows that any commercial 9mm handgun round can easily destroy any of glassware in your house in one shot. But does this happen in GURPS?

A small (1/4 cup = 2 fluid ounces) glass bottle has DR 1 and HP 3 (Low-Tech, p. 34). It's a piece of glass with no moving parts, so it's obviously Homogenous. The bottle is going to match against an iconic 9mm handgun, Beretta 92F (High-Tech, p. 100), which does 2d+2 pi or 9 points (on average). On hit, the glass bottle above takes an injury of (9 - DR 1) * 1/5 (for Homogenous) = 1 point, rounded down.

Yes, only one point per round --you need to shoot the bottle three times with 9mm handgun to force it to roll a unconsciousness check (partial destruction), and six times to force it to roll a death check (total destruction)! This is clearly a murphy. How can you destroy glassware with a handgun in one shot in GURPS, just like in the real life?

Danukian 07-20-2011 11:31 PM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan (Post 1215820)
Anyone knows that any commercial 9mm handgun round can easily destroy any of glassware in your house in one shot. But does this happen in GURPS?

A small (1/4 cup = 2 fluid ounces) glass bottle has DR 1 and HP 3 (Low-Tech, p. 34). It's a piece of glass with no moving parts, so it's obviously Homogenous. The bottle is going to match against an iconic 9mm handgun, Beretta 92F (High-Tech, p. 100), which does 2d+2 pi or 9 points (on average). On hit, the glass bottle above takes an injury of (9 - DR 1) * 1/5 (for Homogenous) = 1 point, rounded down.

Yes, only one point per round --you need to shoot the bottle three times with 9mm handgun to force it to roll a unconsciousness check (partial destruction), and six times to force it to roll a death check (total destruction)! This is clearly a murphy. How can you destroy glassware with a handgun in one shot in GURPS, just like in the real life?

As noted on Low Tech p34, Glass bottles aren't Homogenous (which is meant for solid objects), they are Brittle - see Bpg 136. - so 9 points of damage - 1DR will shatter the glassware just fine.

Gurps Fan 07-21-2011 01:42 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danukian (Post 1215824)
As noted on Low Tech p34, Glass bottles aren't Homogenous (which is meant for solid objects), they are Brittle - see Bpg 136. - so 9 points of damage - 1DR will shatter the glassware just fine.

Yes, glass bottles are Brittle, as pointed out on p. 34 of Low-Tech, and I didn't say otherwise. However, Brittle and Homogenous are not mutually exclusive (examples include Body of Stone meta-trait, p. B262). And a glass bottle is a solid object; in fact, Homogenous is particularly meant for beings whose "body has no vulnerable internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms" (p. B60). Glass bottles, which lack "internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms", are obviously Homogenous -- just as wooden furniture is.

Agemegos 07-21-2011 01:48 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan (Post 1215874)
And a glass bottle is a solid object;

No: it is hollow, which is the opposite of solid.

Xplo 07-21-2011 01:57 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan (Post 1215820)
Anyone knows that any commercial 9mm handgun round can easily destroy any of glassware in your house in one shot. But does this happen in GURPS?

A small (1/4 cup = 2 fluid ounces) glass bottle has DR 1 and HP 3 (Low-Tech, p. 34). It's a piece of glass with no moving parts, so it's obviously Homogenous. The bottle is going to match against an iconic 9mm handgun, Beretta 92F (High-Tech, p. 100), which does 2d+2 pi or 9 points (on average). On hit, the glass bottle above takes an injury of (9 - DR 1) * 1/5 (for Homogenous) = 1 point, rounded down.

Yes, only one point per round --you need to shoot the bottle three times with 9mm handgun to force it to roll a unconsciousness check (partial destruction), and six times to force it to roll a death check (total destruction)! This is clearly a murphy. How can you destroy glassware with a handgun in one shot in GURPS, just like in the real life?

Retain fractions, starting with the bottle's stats. (This may be tricky since the listed stats have already been rounded off, but no one said it would be easy.)

Gurps Fan 07-21-2011 02:03 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett (Post 1215877)
No: it is hollow, which is the opposite of solid.

OK, it might be interesting to discuss what the English word "solid" acutually means, let's leave this question aside for the moment. The question here is whether glass bottles are Homogenous in GURPS terms.

What I want to say is simple: Homogenous means "Your body has no vulnerable internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms" (p. B60), and grass bottles has no vulnerable internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms. Therefore, grass bottles are Homogenous. Q.E.D.

If glass bottles were not Homogenous, they would suddenly suffer all the troubles specifically intended for meat-and-blood people, such as *4 injuries for brain hits, *2 for impaling attacks (*3 if on vitals), etc. That's unlikely.

Gurps Fan 07-21-2011 02:04 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xplo (Post 1215879)
Retain fractions, starting with the bottle's stats. (This may be tricky since the listed stats have already been rounded off, but no one said it would be easy.)

Then the injury the bottle would suffer becomes 1.6 points. This is still a little too small to destroy it in one shot.

panton41 07-21-2011 02:14 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
I have a feeling if they were Homogeneous it would be noted in the write-up.

Ulzgoroth 07-21-2011 02:20 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett (Post 1215877)
No: it is hollow, which is the opposite of solid.

Many unpowered vehicles are also hollow, but they do count as Homogeneous.

I'm inclined to not give glass the benefits of homogeneous because of its basic fragility, but it does lack the features that normally result in either living or unliving injury vulnerability.

Gurps Fan 07-21-2011 02:23 AM

Re: Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ciaran_skye (Post 1215883)
I have a feeling if they were Homogeneous it would be noted in the write-up.

I disagree. I think we can easily agree that 16-cubic-foot metal boxes (DR 3, HP 32) are Homogenous in GURPS terms, but the write-up on p. 34 of Low-Tech lack any statements like "metal boxes have the Homogenous advantage", just like glass bottles.


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