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-   -   Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=172049)

PBarone714 01-30-2021 04:59 AM

Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Can a fencer get the “two weapons” abilities (e.g. an attack and a 2 hit parry) if he uses two sabers? The book says he must use two rapiers or a rapier and a main-gauche, but the fencing Talent says a saber is also a fencing weapon.

Thanks,
Paolo

hcobb 01-30-2021 06:42 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
The restriction goes away for a Master Fencer.

TippetsTX 01-30-2021 08:57 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
While the text may not state this outright, the intent seems clear to me... the two-weapon ability built into the FENCING talents is limited to one primary long blade (rapier or saber) and a short off-hand blade (main gauche only, though I would probably allow a long dagger or cloak as well).

If you want to wield two weapons of equal size and weight (and other combinations) simultaneously, you need to purchase the TWO-WEAPONS talent.

Shostak 01-30-2021 09:47 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Two sabers is not included in the list of double-weapon techniques taught to fencers found in the description of the Two Weapons talent(ITL 41), so Fencing does not allow one to use two sabers.

larsdangly 01-30-2021 10:01 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Indeed; this is a case where the rules are specific enough to make a clear ruling, but you have to know all of the relevant rules passages - the Fencing talent doesn't give you enough information to know how it works, exactly, but Two Weapons completes the explanation.

hcobb 01-30-2021 10:29 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
BTW, does anybody know how the Main Gauche works, other than "Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty."

If you use an off-hand parry does it stop hits from a two-handed sword?

TippetsTX 01-30-2021 11:11 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb (Post 2365125)
BTW, does anybody know how the Main Gauche works, other than "Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty."

If you use an off-hand parry does it stop hits from a two-handed sword?

I tend to visualize the main gauche with a large basket or similar hand protection, so yes.

DouglasCole 01-30-2021 11:34 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX (Post 2365128)
I tend to visualize the main gauche with a large basket or similar hand protection, so yes.

And even if it's just a regular left hand dagger with a large crossguard...it stops ONE HIT. So typical 2H sword blow is 9.5 hits, less one for the dagger, making "parry the 2H sword blow" as poor a tactic as one could hope for.

larsdangly 01-30-2021 01:00 PM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Also, the quoted rule is in the rule book but is wrong in a most unfortunately misleading way: A Main Gauche carries a -1 DX penalty (at least when all of its special qualities are used) but a small shield does not. This is one of several confusing passages that led to confusion about how a MG works.

JustAnotherJarhead 06-13-2021 12:23 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Lars is spot on.

It continues to get worse, when you zero in on the original poster's question.

The rules get a little fuzzy once again;

In the two-weapon talent, option (c) it says A Fencing expert gets to take advantage of the double parry full defense.

(c) "parry with both weapons adding an Extra die to attempts to hit you AND stopping 4 points of damage from any successful attack, but not threatening the enemy."

At this point it's assumed you are just adding 1d6 to your defend roll, at face value it's a single d6 to all melee attempts to hit you, where this is a bit obscure is the use of the word Extra, as a normal defense would present an opponent with a 4d6 roll to hit when only defending with a single blade.

This use of a 2 bladed double defense "could" be read to add an Extra die to the current defense of "defend" status which would have any character with a melee weapon already in a 4d6 status for defend.

Obviously it can be, and will be read differently by different players.

We further cloud the clarity on this, as we reference back to the Fencer talent:
* Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against a Fencer who has a weapon(s) in hand are at -1DX.
If a Fencer chooses the Defend option, attackers must roll an EXTRA die when attacking.

This phrasing of the point is essentially the same as above for two-weapons, with the added clarity of specifically listing the option of "defend" and pointing out the addition of the extra d6 to that defend status, equaling a 5d6 roll to land a successful attack.

It could be argued that the two-weapons "defend" option was trying to say the exact same thing. As a standard Defend option only requires a single weapon in hand, and the focus of the Two-weapons talent options specifically shows the benefits extended by having a second weapon in hand.

If you look at the statement of "parry with both weapons" that seems to indicate, you can parry with just one, normally... but if you parry with both, you add more difficulty to your opponents roll, hence add an additional die.

Now, obviously this is a very powerful maneuver, and for game balance I have ruled against the direct wording, and gone with the choose option, 1 of 3 options for a defensive maneuver, but it goes to show the confusion that could have been resolved by listing all of the features under the appropriate talent at the risk of some redundancy, as well a single combat example would have been a good add as well.

For completion I rule that you can choose a single parry and have no defensive bonus that works against the opponent's to hit roll, and stop 2 hits.
or
Perform a 2 weapon parry under Fencer description and giving the opponent 4d6 to strike you and stopping 4 hits.
or
Perform a full Defend action, stopping 0 hits with your fencing weapons but giving the opponent a 5d6 (6d6 Master Fencer) roll to hit you.

As a final note, 2 rapiers can be used with all benefits as outlined in the last paragraph ITL p.41 of the Two-weapons talent, but not 2 sabers.

If you want to swing two-sabers (or any other heavier weapon than a rapier) then invest into the Two-weapons talent the full 2 points, and I'd probably give it to you as a GM. Also as a GM I remove any penalties that someone might point out against DX while using a Main-Gauche if you are a Fencer, that doesn't make sense to me, Fencing requires a high DX, and Master an even higher DX, so that MG penalties just don't make sense to me for Fencers.

PBarone714 06-19-2021 03:49 PM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
A saber is a FENCING WEAPON and Fencers get the Two Weapons talent, so I would say that a Fencer should be allowed to fence with two sabers.

Nils_Lindeberg 06-19-2021 05:28 PM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PBarone714 (Post 2384898)
A saber is a FENCING WEAPON and Fencers get the Two Weapons talent, so I would say that a Fencer should be allowed to fence with two sabers.

No, they don't get the Two weapon talent, they get it with a limitation. And they can buy the talent for real if they want to use it with two sabers.

The problem is the wording referring to how it was taught historically, so if you want to change what was historically available to fencers in your world, that would be fine and still RAW or at least RAI.

There is also the game balance issue of Sabers being a better weapon than a rapier. 1 higher ST, but 1.5 higher damage, and a greater spread with the 2d-2. And cost-wise it is pretty good too, compared to a rapier. This is important if you consider master-crafted weapon costs.

Nils_Lindeberg 06-20-2021 04:20 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX (Post 2365111)
While the text may not state this outright, the intent seems clear to me... the two-weapon ability built into the FENCING talents is limited to one primary long blade (rapier or saber) and a short off-hand blade (main gauche only, though I would probably allow a long dagger or cloak as well).

If you want to wield two weapons of equal size and weight (and other combinations) simultaneously, you need to purchase the TWO-WEAPONS talent.

I have a very hard time seeing the intent that you describe.
You have two explicit examples, Rapier+MG, and Two rapiers.
This explicitly contradicts your intention. And on top of that, they state that the intent is to replicate historical techniques.

In light of that, you could argue that the intent is to allow for all historically correct fencing techniques, be it a dagger, a small buckler, or a cloak in the left hand. But your claim that the intent is one long blade and one short seems very far-fetched to me.

TippetsTX 06-20-2021 03:22 PM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
The text of the TWO WEAPONS talents literally starts with "This is the knowledge of the Florentine style of fighting...". In other words, paired rapiers. This language pre-dates the new FENCING talents so I'm always going to give it more weight in how I choose to interpret things.

It's also interesting to note that the mention of "two rapiers" further down in the description also came from the original version of the TWO WEAPONS talent, but FENCING was a much different animal at the time. The new language has been tweaked a bit, but it still feels like a holdover from the previous version. For me, this is an example of poor integration of the new FENCING concept with the old TWO WEAPONS mechanics. Most of the ACTs in the Legacy edition could've benefited from more polishing and playtesting IMO. The conflation/overlap that some are now trying to enforce between the two talents is what feels like a stretch TBH.

That said, I think whatever approach works for you and your game is fine. There's alot of stuff I do differently that is much further removed from RAW than this is so I'm hardly the arbiter of the 'right' way to play (and I would never want to be).

RichardTog 07-02-2021 02:53 AM

-
 
Most likely. I think we only ever saw it being used the one time when Impy ordered Baltars execution. Dont recall ever seeing it at any other time.

JustAnotherJarhead 07-25-2021 07:42 AM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PBarone714 (Post 2384898)
A saber is a FENCING WEAPON and Fencers get the Two Weapons talent, so I would say that a Fencer should be allowed to fence with two sabers.

I already answered this above.

Fencing clearly addresses this under the Talents for Fencing and Two weapons, you can not use two sabers, end of discussion. It's right in the book.

timm meyers 07-25-2021 03:07 PM

Re: Fencer two weapons question - 2 sabers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PBarone714 (Post 2384898)
A saber is a FENCING WEAPON and Fencers get the Two Weapons talent, so I would say that a Fencer should be allowed to fence with two sabers.

A "fencing" saber is basically a heavier rapier and not a wider flat edged blade used by cavalry etc. So I believe the semantics/definitions of the words are leading to confusion. The intent in the rules seems pretty clear to me that Fencing is a unique/seperate skill based on the use of lite slim weapons and give players the ability to model a 4 musketeer style character off of etc.


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