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Gnome 11-28-2020 09:08 AM

[Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
I am trying to build an ability that gives the user an Extra Attack, but only for a limited amount of time (say ten seconds), after which it requires a "recharge" time of ten seconds before it can be used again.

I've looked at Limited Use, Maximum Duration and Takes Recharge, but they all seem semi-overlapping and hard to combine.
I think I basically want Maximum Duration but with a shorter recharge time, which would seem like an enhancement on the Maximum Duration limitation, but the value of that is hard to assess.

AlexanderHowl 11-28-2020 09:48 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Maximum Duration is really only appropriate for switchable and beneficial abilities that you would normally use indefinitely (Extra Attack does not really apply). Takes Recharge (-10%) would give a minute of use before requiring two minutes of recharge, so 10 seconds of use and 20 seconds of recharge may be an equivalent limitation, since it would have a 1:2 ratio of use:recharge. A 1:1 ratio of use:recharge would likely then only be worth only -5%.

DangerousThing 11-28-2020 10:08 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
How many fights last more than 10 seconds?

AlexanderHowl 11-28-2020 11:43 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
When you are talking about supers, the combination of high defenses and high damage reduction can cause fights to last for a while. I have seen fights last for over two minutes in game time (which ended up being over two hours in real time).

Plane 11-28-2020 02:51 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355401)
I am trying to build an ability that gives the user an Extra Attack,
but only for a limited amount of time (say ten seconds),
after which it requires a "recharge" time of ten seconds
before it can be used again.

I've looked at Limited Use, Maximum Duration and Takes Recharge, but they all seem semi-overlapping and hard to combine.

To know how to approach it we first need to know whether things like Extra Attack or Compartmentalized Mind (No Mental Separation) function like Always On abilities or Transient "free action" ones.

P153's guidelines take some time for me to puzzle through...

I think maybe it doesn't fit the 2nd requirement of an Always-On ability? The "built-in discrete uses" part: you do have discrete uses of attacks, and once you use them up, you need to wait until your next turn for it to recharge and give your more uses, right?

Which should mean that it's functionally transient as a free action?

The underlying advantage basically has "a duration the user can't control" (1 second or less) because a finite duration is specified? That being 1 second, at which point it will be the next turn and you use another free action to reactivate it?

You could buy "Extended Duration x10" as a +40% enhancement. This means you only need to use 1 free action instead of 10 free actions to get 10 seconds worth of Extra Attack.

That's largely pointless (free actions are free) unless it were tweaked to take longer than a free action to activate Extra Attack, like for example if you wanted to limit it with "Takes Extra Time".

You'd need several levels of that to make up the cost of Extended Duration though... like for example here's a couple ways to save 2 points by netting -10%:

(Takes Extra Time 3 -30% Extended Duration 3x +20%) take 4 ready maneuvers to prep, then you get 3 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 5 -50% Extended Duration 10x +40%) take 15 readies to prep, then you get 10 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 7 -70% Extended Duration 30x +60%) take a minute of readies to prep, then you get 30 seconds worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 9 -90% Extended Duration 100x +80%) take 4m of readies to prep, then you get 100 seconds (1m40s) worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 11 -110% Extended Duration 300x +100%) take 15ms of readies to prep, get 300 seconds (5 minutes) of +1 attack
TET 13 -130 / ED 1000x +120 = 1h of readies get 1000s (16m40s) of +1 attack
TET 15 -150 / ED 3000x +140 = 8h of readies get 50m of +1 attack
TET 17 -170 / ED 10,000x +160 = 30h (1d6h) get 10,000s (166m40s or 2h46m40s) of +1 attack
and so on... seems pretty balanced. It only becomes a problem if you allow Permanent at +300% and the GM could always opt to just disallow permanent and follow existing patterns (30 million x duration at +300%, 100 million x duration at +320%, etc)

TET increases activation time by x32 per -40% while ED increases duration by x10 per +40% so it becomes progressively worse the more you pair this. It's great if you can schedule lots of prep time before a known battle but otherwise is bad because you're very inflexible about when you can fight.

Aftermath: TET (-5% per level) is one idea to shift that (activate as a free action, but you're forced to pay the readies when duration expires) but I don't think Aftermath should be allowed on abilities with durations longer than 12 hours. That's when Maximum Duration ceases to give you points, and getting Aftermath on an ability w/ Maximum Duration: 100 years (-0%) while technically legal in PU8p11 terms, is an abusive point crock.

Sort of like spending 50 points on this:

High Pain Threshold [10]
HP+4 [8]
Regeneration (Extreme, Costs 4 Hit Points per second -80%) [32]
Half the cost of Regeneration (Very Fast) [100] and netting double the HP per second :)

We gotta be wary of how we apply time/HP/FP based limitations on advantages (or enhancements to advantages) which give us extra time/HP/FP

Maybe that's why only Limited Use and Trigger (1 m intervals) was initially specified for Aftermath? Max Duration wasn't actually mentioned until the Expanded Aftermath example of Insubstantiality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355401)
I think I basically want Maximum Duration but with a shorter recharge time, which would seem like an enhancement on the Maximum Duration limitation, but the value of that is hard to assess.

I don't know if we have a term for a mitigator (limitation which makes disadvantages cheaper) as applied to limitations.

We do have "Not Limitation is an Enhancement" precedent in Fantasy (F130 "Behind the Curtain" pricing +40% for "not having Divided Magery") which is how Either/Or Limitations are designed (Restructurable Magery being one such) but I don't know if that could help here...

I don't think you actually bother with giving Maximum Duration to transient abilities though, only stuff which is infinite duration by default.

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:38 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousThing (Post 2355415)
How many fights last more than 10 seconds?

Not many. Ideally I would want to be able to choose duration and recharge time. With the 10s, it should last for one fight but not another if it comes on the heels of the first. But I might want to tweak it to 5/5 so itís likely it runs out during a fight and might even come back if you can stall the fight a bit.

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:40 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355412)
Maximum Duration is really only appropriate for switchable and beneficial abilities that you would normally use indefinitely (Extra Attack does not really apply). Takes Recharge (-10%) would give a minute of use before requiring two minutes of recharge, so 10 seconds of use and 20 seconds of recharge may be an equivalent limitation, since it would have a 1:2 ratio of use:recharge. A 1:1 ratio of use:recharge would likely then only be worth only -5%.

Iím not really seeing how Max Duration doesnít apply. The only canonical use I can think of is on ATR in DF11 (Uninterrupted Flurry). How is ATR different from EA with respect to duration?

Gnome 11-29-2020 05:45 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2355459)
To know how to approach it we first need to know whether things like Extra Attack or Compartmentalized Mind (No Mental Separation) function like Always On abilities or Transient "free action" ones.

P153's guidelines take some time for me to puzzle through...

I think maybe it doesn't fit the 2nd requirement of an Always-On ability? The "built-in discrete uses" part: you do have discrete uses of attacks, and once you use them up, you need to wait until your next turn for it to recharge and give your more uses, right?

Which should mean that it's functionally transient as a free action?

The underlying advantage basically has "a duration the user can't control" (1 second or less) because a finite duration is specified? That being 1 second, at which point it will be the next turn and you use another free action to reactivate it?

You could buy "Extended Duration x10" as a +40% enhancement. This means you only need to use 1 free action instead of 10 free actions to get 10 seconds worth of Extra Attack.

That's largely pointless (free actions are free) unless it were tweaked to take longer than a free action to activate Extra Attack, like for example if you wanted to limit it with "Takes Extra Time".

You'd need several levels of that to make up the cost of Extended Duration though... like for example here's a couple ways to save 2 points by netting -10%:

(Takes Extra Time 3 -30% Extended Duration 3x +20%) take 4 ready maneuvers to prep, then you get 3 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 5 -50% Extended Duration 10x +40%) take 15 readies to prep, then you get 10 seconds worth of +1 attack
(Takes Extra Time 7 -70% Extended Duration 30x +60%) take a minute of readies to prep, then you get 30 seconds worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 9 -90% Extended Duration 100x +80%) take 4m of readies to prep, then you get 100 seconds (1m40s) worth of +1 attack)
(Takes Extra Time 11 -110% Extended Duration 300x +100%) take 15ms of readies to prep, get 300 seconds (5 minutes) of +1 attack
TET 13 -130 / ED 1000x +120 = 1h of readies get 1000s (16m40s) of +1 attack
TET 15 -150 / ED 3000x +140 = 8h of readies get 50m of +1 attack
TET 17 -170 / ED 10,000x +160 = 30h (1d6h) get 10,000s (166m40s or 2h46m40s) of +1 attack
and so on... seems pretty balanced. It only becomes a problem if you allow Permanent at +300% and the GM could always opt to just disallow permanent and follow existing patterns (30 million x duration at +300%, 100 million x duration at +320%, etc)

TET increases activation time by x32 per -40% while ED increases duration by x10 per +40% so it becomes progressively worse the more you pair this. It's great if you can schedule lots of prep time before a known battle but otherwise is bad because you're very inflexible about when you can fight.

Aftermath: TET (-5% per level) is one idea to shift that (activate as a free action, but you're forced to pay the readies when duration expires) but I don't think Aftermath should be allowed on abilities with durations longer than 12 hours. That's when Maximum Duration ceases to give you points, and getting Aftermath on an ability w/ Maximum Duration: 100 years (-0%) while technically legal in PU8p11 terms, is an abusive point crock.

Sort of like spending 50 points on this:

High Pain Threshold [10]
HP+4 [8]
Regeneration (Extreme, Costs 4 Hit Points per second -80%) [32]
Half the cost of Regeneration (Very Fast) [100] and netting double the HP per second :)

We gotta be wary of how we apply time/HP/FP based limitations on advantages (or enhancements to advantages) which give us extra time/HP/FP

Maybe that's why only Limited Use and Trigger (1 m intervals) was initially specified for Aftermath? Max Duration wasn't actually mentioned until the Expanded Aftermath example of Insubstantiality.


I don't know if we have a term for a mitigator (limitation which makes disadvantages cheaper) as applied to limitations.

We do have "Not Limitation is an Enhancement" precedent in Fantasy (F130 "Behind the Curtain" pricing +40% for "not having Divided Magery") which is how Either/Or Limitations are designed (Restructurable Magery being one such) but I don't know if that could help here...

I don't think you actually bother with giving Maximum Duration to transient abilities though, only stuff which is infinite duration by default.

I can’t say I understand the Extended Duration idea, since by default EA lasts forever. Seems like you’re paying to make it worse. Aftermath sounds promising, but I still don’t know how to limit duration of an always on ability without Max Duration

Gnome 11-29-2020 06:00 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
What if I combine Limited Use 1 (Slow Reload, 10 s), -35% with Reduced Duration (1/6), -15%?
The idea is that Limited Use creates a duration for EA of 1 minute, and Reduced Duration takes this down to 10s.

The only problem here is that reloading is a distinct set of actions, whereas I want the "recharge" to happen automatically while you wait...

AlexanderHowl 11-29-2020 06:59 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355535)
Iím not really seeing how Max Duration doesnít apply. The only canonical use I can think of is on ATR in DF11 (Uninterrupted Flurry). How is ATR different from EA with respect to duration?

ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.

There is also that matter of game balance. There is no reason at all why people would not take Maximum Duration with Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack if it was an option. For example, imagine a superhero with Extra Attack 4 (Maximum Duration, 20 seconds, -75%; Multiattack, +20%; Single Skill, Karate, -20%) [25]. For 25 CP, they could make 100 attacks in 20 seconds, and parry 120 times, easily allowing them to take out an infantry company and defend against all their attacks.

Gnome 11-29-2020 07:34 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355543)
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.

There is also that matter of game balance. There is no reason at all why people would not take Maximum Duration with Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack if it was an option. For example, imagine a superhero with Extra Attack 4 (Maximum Duration, 20 seconds, -75%; Multiattack, +20%; Single Skill, Karate, -20%) [25]. For 25 CP, they could make 100 attacks in 20 seconds, and parry 120 times, easily allowing them to take out an infantry company and defend against all their attacks.

If the infantry company can stall a bit, perhaps by fleeing for 20s, the ability shuts off for 5 minutes. That seems significant. Also, doesnít similar logic apply to ATR? CM and EA just seem like limited forms of ATR.

AlexanderHowl 11-29-2020 09:46 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
No, CM and EA are not limited forms of ATR, because they do not cause difficulties with interactions. CM and EA can also represent being controlled by another party. In additiom, CM grants effective partial immunity to mental effects, as mental effects normally only target one mind at a time.

Plane 11-29-2020 10:39 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnome (Post 2355537)
I canít say I understand the Extended Duration idea, since by default EA lasts forever.

I'm approaching it like it's an ability which can be activated as a free action at the start of your turn and lasts one second.

Can anyone see any drawbacks in doing that?

We have to move away from assuming "always on" to allow things like Nuisance Effects, like how Bio-Tech essentially incorporates Odious Personal Habits (sweating, -1 reaction) as a Temporary Disadvantage but calls it a Nuisance.

In the case of regeneration there is at least a 1-second delay before you do any Healing so even though it doesn't cost a maneuver to switch on (essentially is Reflexive: turns on when you need it) that delay fits in the spirit of TD, just like the 1-second delay of Leech's healing allows you to take Temporary Disadvantages on that (as in Powers)

Of course regeneration will also start up when you might not want it to (eg: you'd rather be down 1 HP for the next three hours instead of being sweat/smelly for your fancy dress dinner) and it's not possible to shut it off w/ a Will Roll like w/ an Uncontrollable ability, so it's definitely pretty close to the inflexibility of an Always On one... sort of like "Minimum Duration: Variable" (however long it takes to heal all wounds, you can't stop sweating)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355560)
No, CM and EA are not limited forms of ATR, because they do not cause difficulties with interactions.

With ATR1 it feels like maybe even if they couldn't switch it off perhaps they could do some kind of IQ check to try and talk at half-speed to be understood?

Or if evaluate or feint were super-important, to sacrifice 2 maneuvers to accomplish it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355560)
CM and EA can also represent being controlled by another party.

I get the idea with CM but do you know an example of EA being used this way?

This does cause me to dwell on how EA is physical (can't take it with you when possessing someone else's body, someone possessing your body gets to use it) while CM is mental. I guess you could convert EA to mental by adding "requires will roll" or similar to it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355560)
In additiom, CM grants effective partial immunity to mental effects, as mental effects normally only target one mind at a time.

Yeah I think when we compare the two we usually tack on "No Mental Separation" limitation, at which point it's not really a "compartmentalized" mind in the sense of consciousness, only tasks?

The way both halves travel when you possess a body (doesn't seem a way around it) makes it hard to think of it as control by another party though...

Uncontrollable comes to mind to represent that, but I'm not sure what an Uncontrollable Compartmentalized Mind could do... could it start casting spells you know?

Were you thinking Uncontrollable + Extra Attack in the above?

AlexanderHowl 11-29-2020 11:39 AM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
No, the EA was just accidentally extending the idea of controls for CM to EA.

transmetahuman 11-29-2020 12:58 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355543)
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on). Conversely, there are not associated problems with using Compartmentalized Mind or Extra Attack, so they are always on.

I don't believe you need to actually switch off ATR, in the Switchable sense, in order to interact with normal speed characters. "In order to do anything that depends on someone else’s reactions, you must deliberately 'slow down' and function at his speed. This applies both when making a Feint in combat and when making an Influence roll (see p. 359) out of combat. For instance, if you choose to Feint, that is all you can do on your turn – you can not take extra actions".

The wording seems, to me, to imply that ATR is a passive, permanent ability that gives you a "maximum speed" higher than others - but like a Move score, you don't need to switch it off or take a Variable enhancement - in fact, Powers p.107 says "Variable is strictly for attacks, which otherwise work at full power at all times. Non-attack abilities don’t need it - their range, area, level of effect, and so on are variable automatically". Of course it still becomes Switchable if your ATR has, e.g., the Temp Disad: Hemophilia example in Basic.

Speedsters in the comics never have trouble understanding the speech of others while they're zipping around, despite the frequency shift logic would dictate for someone living in a slow-mo world. It's RAW that you can't use Influence skills on people unless you use your full turn (or set of turns, if you look at it that way), but I would argue that you can still say things during your ATR (intelligibly), as the comics speedsters can - you just need to be able to incorporate a subject's reactions, and thus slow down, in order to actually use an Influence skill.

Edit: ... In an appropriate supers setting, anyway, or with ATR digital minds that have the trivial capability to buffer people's speech or otherwise process the slow-mo version. I can easily imagine some versions of ATR with other rationales being unable to understand or speak intelligibly.

Plane 11-29-2020 03:54 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by transmetahuman (Post 2355604)
I don't believe you need to actually switch off ATR, in the Switchable sense, in order to interact with normal speed characters. "In order to do anything that depends on someone elseís reactions, you must deliberately 'slow down' and function at his speed. This applies both when making a Feint in combat and when making an Influence roll (see p. 359) out of combat. For instance, if you choose to Feint, that is all you can do on your turn Ė you can not take extra actions".

The wording seems, to me, to imply that ATR is a passive, permanent ability that gives you a "maximum speed" higher than others

Alternatively: what if we just perceive it being inherently switchable as a free action?

That would explain how you could "slow down", but would allow someone to take an "Always On" limitation (like -10%) if they're unable to slow down to do things like Feint / Influence / Evaluate.

Kind of like built-in temporary disadvantages, but to take any other kind you'd probably need to buy "Takes Extra Time" to stop it being a free action to switch (need a free ready to switch) it on and off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmetahuman (Post 2355604)
Powers p.107 says "Variable is strictly for attacks, which otherwise work at full power at all times.
Non-attack abilities donít need it - their range, area, level of effect, and so on are variable automatically"

and yet same book also suggests taking Variable for Mana Enhancer / Mana Damper... are those attacks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmetahuman (Post 2355604)
Of course it still becomes Switchable if your ATR has, e.g., the Temp Disad: Hemophilia example in Basic.

Temp Did doesn't make stuff switchable, either it's already switchable or you need to alter it to be.

Transient stuff kinda hinges on switchability just without being able to control duration.

Donny Brook 11-29-2020 05:52 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2355543)
ATR makes it impossible to socially interact with people, or use Feint against people, who do not possess an equivalent ATR, meaning that you have to switch it off (beneficial and switchable, but problematic if always left on).

That's not quite correct. The RAW says you can interact with people but you must "deliberately "slow down" and function at his speed". That's not the same as switching the power off.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2355572)
I'm approaching it like it's an ability which can be activated as a free action at the start of your turn and lasts one second.

That's not a correct approach. EA is always on even when you are choosing not to use it. If you have Acute Vision, it's not switched off just because you've closed your eyes. Likewise if you have Extra Attack, you still have it even if you're not attacking.

Quote:

With ATR1 it feels like maybe even if they couldn't switch it off perhaps they could do some kind of IQ check to try and talk at half-speed to be understood?
The text specifically contemplates that the character can opt to go slower and it doesn't mention a need for a roll.


Quote:

Alternatively: what if we just perceive it being inherently switchable as a free action?
That would be importing an interpretation that is neither correct nor necessary.

Plane 11-30-2020 05:22 PM

Re: [Powers] limited duration with short recharge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2355667)
EA is always on even when you are choosing not to use it.

I used to think the same of regeneration, but that only seems to invoke it's nuisance effect (temp disad: odious) when actually recovering HP in Bio-Tech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2355667)
If you have Acute Vision, it's not switched off just because you've closed your eyes.

B118 interestingly approaches Night Vision as if it were inherently switchable since you can take Temporary Disadvantage: Unnatural Feature on it.

The ability to close one's eyes seems like it would make vision effectively a switchable sense.

Hearing is nearly there but the ears can't close themselves (you use hands to cover, like you might use to cover eyes if you lacked eyelids) so maybe there's some kind of built-in limitation to switchability like "requires eyelids" ?

Being able to switch off your vision without actually closing your eyelids would be pretty cool since then you could relax and avoid distractions while seeming like you were paying attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2355667)
if you have Extra Attack, you still have it even if you're not attacking.

Having an advantage and having it on are two different things. Does

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2355667)
The text specifically contemplates that the character can opt to go slower and it doesn't mention a need for a roll.

Which could be evidence that it's switchable by default since that seems like something you'd have trouble with (Ballad of Barry Allen)

If time is literally going fast then imagine trying to follow a conversation being played to you at 1/100 speed. It would be hard to pay attention to.

If that's not built into having ATR on then we definitely need to figure out how to build that in as some kind of drawback to having this as an always-on trait, or a temporary disadvantage if you make it switchable.


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