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-   -   For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=163721)

larsdangly 06-21-2019 12:48 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Has anyone here suggested an interpretation that they actually use at the table and that disagrees with what most posters think should be allowed? I understand the RAW could have been more sharply worded to remove ambiguity, but if everyone is using the same rulings for these situations is there an actual problem?

JLV 06-21-2019 01:16 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2270246)
ITL p102, heading up the options list: "During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figures's option, as long as... that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option"

Isn't this completely clear? There is even an example of someone changing their minds a few pages later.

ITL p107: "It is legal to change to an attack option when your turn comes to act, if you did not move more than the option allows. For instance, if a figure stood still during movement, intending to 'change weapons' and an enemy moved into one of his front hexes to attack, then the first figure could change to option (a) and attack."

ITL p127 the example combat - Kov decides to cast a spell, then, after movement, changes his mind and attacks instead.

I'm a little confused here. You two seem to be talking about different issues -- you're talking about option choice in general, and he specifically mentioned "engaged" status as being the determining factor -- which it is; if you're engaged, you can't just run around and pick different options; at a minimum you have to disengage first...

RobW 06-21-2019 01:52 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV (Post 2270260)
I'm a little confused here. You two seem to be talking about different issues -- you're talking about option choice in general, and he specifically mentioned "engaged" status as being the determining factor

I think that's right. At the start of the thread I tried to explain, as clearly as I possibly could, a bug in the rules. Yes, you can change options, and that is great. The problems is that RAW your available options are determined by your engagement status at the time your turn comes to move.

RobW 06-21-2019 02:02 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2270247)
I understand the RAW could have been more sharply worded to remove ambiguity, but if everyone is using the same rulings for these situations is there an actual problem?

I think the rules in this particular case are not ambiguous at all, they just produce weird effects.

So yes, I guess in this case the best outcome is that we are all not playing according to the rules.

Seems like kind of a low bar for a set of rules though?

MikMod 06-21-2019 03:53 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RobW (Post 2270266)
The problems is that RAW your available options are determined by your engagement status at the time your turn comes to move.

Are they though? The rules seem pretty clear that it is only how much you have moved which limits which options you can choose from - any other initial conditions for an option are not mentioned at all.

Example. Bolg is engaged by two goblins, front and rear. They're quick and the one in front doesn't fancy tasting Bolg's sword and disengages. The one behind him takes fright and decides to move away as well. All Bolg has done this turn is face one of the goblins. Then he sees another goblin taking aim at him with a hefty looking crossbow. Are you saying that he cannot dodge? Because he started this turn engaged...?

Or what about Elthionel who is happily walking through the forest at two hexes a turn when a goblin drops on him and suddenly he is in HTH. Are you saying he cannot attempt to draw a dagger in his action, because he was disengaged and not in HTH at the start of the turn?

RobW 06-22-2019 02:46 AM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod (Post 2270282)
Any other initial conditions for an option are not mentioned at all.

Not at all, except 4 times, twice using special emphasis:
P 102 “list of options”
P 102 “options for disengaged figures”
P 103 “options for engaged figures”
“Player cards” you can easily find it

If you simply ignore all these mentions of options available based on engagement status when turn comes to move [emphasis in original], things work better. Better but not perfect imo as even then you are still unable to defend against a jab.

Your examples are another illustration of how the RAW are borked, certainly the dodge one. Exact same arguments apply.

MikMod 06-22-2019 04:31 AM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Sorry, maybe I should have been clearer.

When changing options no mention is made of any requirement except not having moved too far.

Yes, engagement is mentioned underneath, in the individual options, because that has a secondary effect on what you can choose - an archer cannot fire if they're engaged for instance - but 'correct' engagement at your time to move is not mentioned as a requirement when changing options.

I guess in essence, I see this rule, at the top of the whole options list, as taking priority, whereas you see the rules under individual sections taking priority.

Maybe it's ambiguous. It is certainly at least up for debate since I and my players never once read it as you have.

larsdangly 06-22-2019 09:37 AM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
This doesn't seem that complicated to me.

There are just a couple of actions that are peculiar with respect to the usual order because they oppose another combatant's actions, even when that combatant acts before you. Defend and Dodge are the main ones I have in mind.

In these cases, it seems obvious that you are allowed to announce them as your action for that turn whenever the condition they oppose first arises, provided you haven't already performed a different action that turn. Thus you can announce you are defending either at your position in the DX order or earlier if someone attacks you, provided you didn't move in a way that removes Defend from your list of possible actions.

Usually this will mean you are engaged at the time you select the Defend action because your foe will be next to and facing you to deliver their attack. So, in these cases you are also conforming to the letter of the law w/r to the 'Options' table. In special cases (jab attacks, or attacks from 1 hex figures vs. multi-hex figures that they technically do not engage) you have to use common sense, which I would say in this case means you can defend against any melee attacks you wish to defend against, provided you meet the basic constraints (you are armed, etc).

The general issue here is that TFT is a very rules bound game, but it is also only ~150 pages long and contains tons of material on tons of subjects. So, it is inevitable that you will need to extrapolate rules that are defined for common circumstances to appropriate rulings for unusual circumstances. If the book specified how every rule works in every imaginable circumstance it would be 500 pages long.

Skarg 06-22-2019 03:38 PM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2270402)
In these cases, it seems obvious that you are allowed to announce them as your action for that turn whenever the condition they oppose first arises, provided you haven't already performed a different action that turn. Thus you can announce you are defending either at your position in the DX order or earlier if someone attacks you, provided you didn't move in a way that removes Defend from your list of possible actions.

Yes, and before Legacy edition, it used to be very explicitly stated in Wizard and Advanced Melee that you could do that, AND that the movement limit for Defend was 1/2 MA, not 1 hex.

Unfortunately, evidently Phil and Steve still don't understand that this is an issue, and/or prefer to repeat the wording of the published rules, which imply various other interpretations to various people.

Sadly, it looks like it's set to be published that way again in Decks of Destiny unless someone manages to get through to them on this point.

RobW 06-23-2019 04:49 AM

Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2270402)
In these cases, it seems obvious that you are allowed to announce them as your action for that turn whenever the condition they oppose first arises, provided you haven't already performed a different action that turn.

I would guess this issue (can a low DX figure usefully dodge/defend) has been the most frequent question about Dodge/Defend on this forum. So maybe it's not that obvious, especially for people who weren't raised back in the day on Advanced Melee.

And to be fair, the issue raised in this thread, about the sequence of play and options, does not seem to be a big concern. Everyone seems to quite rightly ignore it, which is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by larsdangly (Post 2270402)
The general issue here is that TFT is a very rules bound game, but it is also only ~150 pages long and contains tons of material on tons of subjects. So, it is inevitable that you will need to extrapolate rules that are defined for common circumstances to appropriate rulings for unusual circumstances. If the book specified how every rule works in every imaginable circumstance it would be 500 pages long.

With respect (seriously), this is a straw man. This isn't comparable to there not being a rule for how to jump on a moving chariot, this is a discussion about the basic sequence of play determining combat. I would say tactical combat is the core of the entire TFT system, and the sequence of play is arguably the core of combat.

Melee/Wizard were of course very successful boardgames with very short rulebooks, and within the context of arena combat I don't recall we ever needed to resolve rules ambiguities. Of course that was a long time ago :). But certainly we never decided that the rules were simply wrong!

Advanced Melee was another step forward in clarity.

In fact, I've just gone back and looked at AM again, and there is nothing in there with this "turn comes to move" business. Options are not listed by engagement status, but listed by how far you've moved. And of course you can change options as long as you haven't moved too far. This is clear and logical.


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