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-   -   [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled Burst (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=115439)

MatthewVilter 08-25-2013 11:40 AM

[High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled Burst
 
As I understand High-Cyclic Controlled Bursts you still feel the full recoil for firing 3 shots, just not until after the 3rd round leaves the barrel of the gun.

Of course with shotguns you feel the recoil after firing each shell whether firing slugs or buckshot.

I light of this doesn't it make sense for recoil to play more of a role when firing, say, 3x9 or 9# as opposed to 1x9 or 3#?

Fred Brackin 08-25-2013 12:03 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter (Post 1634723)
As I understand High-Cyclic Controlled Bursts you still feel the full recoil for firing 3 shots, just not until after the 3rd round leaves the barrel of the gun.

Of course with shotguns you feel the recoil after firing each shell whether firing slugs or buckshot.

I light of this doesn't it make sense for recoil to play more of a role when firing, say, 3x9 or 9# as opposed to 1x9 or 3#?

Felt recoil is meaningless when discussing the Gurps RCL stat. RCL is something else entirely specifically dispersal of shots.

Ulzgoroth 08-25-2013 12:58 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter (Post 1634723)
As I understand High-Cyclic Controlled Bursts you still feel the full recoil for firing 3 shots, just not until after the 3rd round leaves the barrel of the gun.

Of course with shotguns you feel the recoil after firing each shell whether firing slugs or buckshot.

I light of this doesn't it make sense for recoil to play more of a role when firing, say, 3x9 or 9# as opposed to 1x9 or 3#?

It already does, in a sense.

You won't hit with a single pellet that can't be attributed to your first shell or burst until you've achieved an MoS of 9 or 3, respectively.

apoc527 08-25-2013 01:01 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Fred is correct, but I also agree with the OP. There is something odd about the way that High Cyclic Controlled Bursts go. It's supposed to be like firing 3 shots with the massive recoil of one shot. But then you do this 3 times in a second and yet you still get Rcl 1?

The part that bugs me most is that you get the RoF bonus from firing 9 shots. It seems to me that you are actually firing three shots, and thus should get no actual RoF bonus. It's just the 3 "shots" are actually 3-round bursts with Rcl 1.

I might adopt that as a house rule, actually.

lexington 08-25-2013 01:12 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527 (Post 1634759)
Fred is correct, but I also agree with the OP. There is something odd about the way that High Cyclic Controlled Bursts go. It's supposed to be like firing 3 shots with the massive recoil of one shot. But then you do this 3 times in a second and yet you still get Rcl 1?

The part that bugs me most is that you get the RoF bonus from firing 9 shots. It seems to me that you are actually firing three shots, and thus should get no actual RoF bonus. It's just the 3 "shots" are actually 3-round bursts with Rcl 1.

I might adopt that as a house rule, actually.

HCCB is just another place where any simple system for estimating shot spread is going to fall apart.

One possible way to do it is like this:
When you set a gun to HCCB is has Rcl 2. Determine if you will hit normally.
If you hit roll to see how much of the burst hits. Treat this as another attack made with Skill 22+Acc (whether you aimed or not) modified only by Range and SM and with Rcl 1.

vierasmarius 08-25-2013 01:18 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington (Post 1634765)
HCCB is just another place where any simple system for estimating shot spread is going to fall apart.

One possible way to do it is like this:
When you set a gun to HCCB is has Rcl 2. Determine if you will hit normally.
If you hit roll to see how much of the burst hits. Treat this as another attack made with Skill 22+Acc (whether you aimed or not) modified only by Range and SM and with Rcl 1.

I would want to avoid adding much in the way of extra rolls. Maybe just 1d6/2 to see how many of the 3 rounds hit. This is assuming that with HCCB all three rounds of the burst stay tightly grouped, rather than dispersing the way a shotgun blast does.

lexington 08-25-2013 01:21 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius (Post 1634770)
I would want to avoid adding much in the way of extra rolls. Maybe just 1d6/2 to see how many of the 3 rounds hit. This is assuming that with HCCB all three rounds of the burst stay tightly grouped, rather than dispersing the way a shotgun blast does.

They will disperse just like anything will, at 100 meters they won't be a neat clump. The 22+Acc is meant to represent the amount of dispersion they would experience coming out of different guns.

(I do agree that lots of extra die rolls are unpleasant.)

apoc527 08-25-2013 01:23 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius (Post 1634770)
I would want to avoid adding much in the way of extra rolls. Maybe just 1d6/2 to see how many of the 3 rounds hit. This is assuming that with HCCB all three rounds of the burst stay tightly grouped, rather than dispersing the way a shotgun blast does.

That's not a bad solution, but honestly, I don't mind just using Rcl 1 to simulate the effects of HCCB. I just don't like that you also get the normal RoF bonus to hit. If you treat 3 HCCBs in a second as 3 shots, that's a RoF bonus of 0 instead of +2 for 9 shots. Not a bad trade off with guns -- you can either choose HCCB setting for Rcl 1 on up to 9 shots but no RoF bonus OR you can fire at the weapon's non-HCCB ROF, have Rcl 2 and get the normal RoF bonus.

I care more about the game mechanical choices than I do the realism level here. GURPS is already 1x10^5 more realistic than any other system I've actually played, so if I defer somewhat to gamism every so often, no skin off my teeth!

vierasmarius 08-25-2013 01:28 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527 (Post 1634774)
That's not a bad solution, but honestly, I don't mind just using Rcl 1 to simulate the effects of HCCB. I just don't like that you also get the normal RoF bonus to hit. If you treat 3 HCCBs in a second as 3 shots, that's a RoF bonus of 0 instead of +2 for 9 shots. Not a bad trade off with guns -- you can either choose HCCB setting for Rcl 1 on up to 9 shots but no RoF bonus OR you can fire at the weapon's non-HCCB ROF, have Rcl 2 and get the normal RoF bonus.

Oh, I'm with you there. I'd like to see a system where you can pretty freely trade between Rcl (shot spread) and RoF to-hit bonus. For example, un-choking a shotgun so the pellets disperse even more than usual, resulting in fewer hits but a higher chance of at least some hits.

MatthewVilter 08-25-2013 01:55 PM

Re: [High-Tech] Recoil between shots/bursts for shotguns and High-Cyclic Controlled B
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lexington (Post 1634765)
One possible way to do it is like this:
When you set a gun to HCCB is has Rcl 2. Determine if you will hit normally.
If you hit roll to see how much of the burst hits. Treat this as another attack made with Skill 22+Acc (whether you aimed or not) modified only by Range and SM and with Rcl 1.

This at least sounds like it should be quite realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527 (Post 1634774)
That's not a bad solution, but honestly, I don't mind just using Rcl 1 to simulate the effects of HCCB. I just don't like that you also get the normal RoF bonus to hit. If you treat 3 HCCBs in a second as 3 shots, that's a RoF bonus of 0 instead of +2 for 9 shots. Not a bad trade off with guns -- you can either choose HCCB setting for Rcl 1 on up to 9 shots but no RoF bonus OR you can fire at the weapon's non-HCCB ROF, have Rcl 2 and get the normal RoF bonus.

This seems like a pretty effective game mechanic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527 (Post 1634774)
I care more about the game mechanical choices than I do the realism level here. GURPS is already 1x10^5 more realistic than any other system I've actually played, so if I defer somewhat to gamism every so often, no skin off my teeth!

I really just want something that is quick to explain and at least symbolically represents reality. :)


Any thoughts on how this problem applies to shotguns?


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