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-   -   Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.] (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=142139)

Icelander 03-11-2016 04:31 AM

Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Do we have official GURPS stats for compact rifles firing anti-materiel rounds, like the Barrett XM500 and MICOR Defense Leader 50, both in .50 BMG?

I'm primarily wondering what the shorter barrels do to GURPS Acc, i.e. whether breakpoints for -1 Acc should be at 24" barrels, 20" or 17.6" barrel for the .50 BMG. All of the above are rated as Bulk -5 and Acc 5 for 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm, but the .50 BMG might require a longer barrel by default and count as 'carbine' in anything 20" barrel and shorter.

I'm also wondering about Rcl and ST. The M82 statted in High-Tech is damn heavy, has a floating barrel and a pretty good muzzle-brake. Are lighter .50 BMG rifles harder to handle, resulting in higher Rcl and ST? Does not having a floating barrel and a muzzle brake translate into higher Rcl and ST?

I'm also wondering if there is a realistic way to custom-build or even order a carbine length weapon (16" barrel or so) that is handy for entry but chambers a round substantially more effective against supernaturally tough threats than the 7.62x51mm. Semi-automatic, magazine-fed, at least 10-rounds.

Ideal chamberings would be .408 CheyTac or .416 Barrett, if those can work in such short barrels, but otherwise anything that gets Dmg over 7d pi+.

.450 Bushmaster looks pretty practical for a civilian monster hunter, though I don't know how much Dmg you would get. .45 Raptor might be even better.

Tomsdad 03-11-2016 04:48 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander (Post 1987771)
Do we have official GURPS stats for compact rifles firing anti-materiel rounds, like the Barrett XM500 and MICOR Defense Leader 50, both in .50 BMG?

I'm primarily wondering what the shorter barrels do to GURPS Acc, i.e. whether breakpoints for -1 Acc should be at 24" barrels, 20" or 17.6" barrel for the .50 BMG. All of the above are rated as Bulk -5 and Acc 5 for 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm, but the .50 BMG might require a longer barrel by default and count as 'carbine' in anything 20" barrel and shorter.

I'm also wondering about Rcl and ST. The M82 statted in High-Tech is damn heavy, has a floating barrel and a pretty good muzzle-brake. Are lighter .50 BMG rifles harder to handle, resulting in higher Rcl and ST? Does not having a floating barrel and a muzzle brake translate into higher Rcl and ST?

I'm also wondering if there is a realistic way to custom-build or even order a carbine length weapon (16" barrel or so) that is handy for entry but chambers a round substantially more effective against supernaturally tough threats than the 7.62x51mm. Semi-automatic, magazine-fed, at least 10-rounds.

Ideal chamberings would be .408 CheyTac or .416 Barrett, if those can work in such short barrels, but otherwise anything that gets Dmg over 7d pi+.

.450 Bushmaster looks pretty practical for a civilian monster hunter, though I don't know how much Dmg you would get. .45 Raptor might be even better.

there are stats for the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf Entry (I think it was in a Pyramid "fire-power at the movies" article)

it's 6d+1 pi+ Acc4 (it's basically the .50 "entry rifle" in Monster hunters - Champions).

It's a shorter round then the BMG so doesn't make reach your 7d+ threshold though.

Icelander 03-11-2016 05:06 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 1987776)
there are stats for the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf EntrY (I think it was in a Pyramid "fire-power at the movies" article)

it's 6d+1 pi+ Acc4 (it's basically the .50 "entry rifle" in Monster hunters - Champions).

It's a shorter round then the BMG so doesn't make reach your 7d+ threshold though.

Yep, recall that. The .50 Beowulf has very low velocity, though. And it's only ST 10.

In the last twenty years, plenty of awesome-but-impractical rounds have been designed by wildcatters. At least some of them are designed to be compatible with AR-15 or AR-10 firearms, at least in part. Others have been MacGuyered somehow to work in other semi-automatic designs.

And that makes them interesting to monster hunters, even if marginal or useless for real world tactical situations.

Icelander 03-11-2016 05:45 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
The RND 2500 in .408 CheyTac, Alexander Arms Ulfberht in .338 Lapua Magnum and CheyTac M400* in .408 CheyTac sound like interesting base weapons to apply modifiers to for an entry carbine suited for ST 13+ monster hunters facing supernatural horrors.

The VR1 rifle might also be worth looking into, though a 5-rd magazine is obviously not enough.

*I don't think that one ever went into production, though.

Tomsdad 03-11-2016 05:52 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander (Post 1987782)
Yep, recall that. The .50 Beowulf has very low velocity, though. And it's only ST 10.

In the last twenty years, plenty of awesome-but-impractical rounds have been designed by wildcatters. At least some of them are designed to be compatible with AR-15 or AR-10 firearms, at least in part. Others have been MacGuyered somehow to work in other semi-automatic designs.

And that makes them interesting to monster hunters, even if marginal or useless for real world tactical situations.

How about running a longer .50* through the gun modification rules in TS (basically the shortening a long arm options)

This will reduce damage**, weight, acc and bulk (and increase ST and RcL if you remove the stock)



*or Lapua / CheyTac rifle

**huh but not range (personally I'd apply the same mod to range as damage)

weby 03-11-2016 05:59 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Depends on what you want to do. Basically the short .50 bmg rifles are really not suitable for use as carbines, you need to use the rest.

As for building a suitable carbine doing more damage:
.50 beowulf from loadouts monster hunters is a good candidate, but below the 7d (6d+1 pi+), but if you use the optional bigger is better rules it gets the nice x1.8 multiple, so that compensates..
.450 Bushmaster is lower energy and smaller cartridge(only 1.6x multiple with bigger is better)
.45 Raptor is quite a lot higher energy, I wonder how well it can be shot without rest. But the damage profile would fit your criteria as it would be order of magnitude 7d+something of pi+ (though only 1.6x with bigger is better)

In something like .408 CheyTac or .416 Barrett you are talking around 11kj of energy and that is a lot to shoot from anything except a rest and the rifles for such tend to be pretty heavy too...

The heaviest cartridge I have shot from a short barrel is .338 lapua mag, and that is only about half the energy. An acquaintance has a shortened Sako TRG-42 and it shoots just fine without a rest and can be used well while standing. It is bolt lock though and still about 5kg, thus pretty heavy. A semiautomatic action would add further mass..

(The original short barrel TRG 42 model is 510mm (20"), but his is shortened close to the minimum allowed by law here, 400mm including the cartridge length, basically pretty close to half the barrel length of my long barrel version(690mm) and about 2/3 the original short barrel version.)


TLDR; If you use the bigger is better rules just use the .50 beowulf, if not, use as high energy .46/.46 as you can with your ST.

Icelander 03-11-2016 06:04 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 1987797)
How about running a longer .50 through the gun modification rules in TS (basically the shortening a long arm options)

This will reduce damage*, weight, acc and bulk (and increase ST and RcL if you remove the stock)

I intend to do that, but the gunsmithing rules in TS are generic. I'm looking for more precise effects. Specific firearms might have breakpoints for ST and Rcl that are affected as well, not to mention that reducing barrel length down to 18"-22" usually doesn't affect Acc for rifles.

For most firearms, reducing weight reduces required ST. Some firearms, however, are difficult to control and reducing weight actually ends up increasing required ST and/or Rcl.

Using the rules without considering sanity-checking it against experience or education of other forumites can yield me a bullpup M82 that is Bulk -4, Acc 4 and does Dmg 9d pi+. It will weigh 30/4.4 after Weight Reduction and has ST 13 and Rcl 3.

Now, I don't know if these are realistic numbers. I'm pretty sure weight could go down even more, because the M82 is massively heavy, even beyond what other .50 BMG rifles are, and we could probably dispense with some of that weight for an entry rifle. But I think that ST 13 and Rcl 3 are very optimistic numbers, especially if we do cut down weight further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 1987797)
*huh but not range (personally I'd apply the same mod to range as damage)

It should certainly reduce Range as well.

johndallman 03-11-2016 06:07 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander (Post 1987771)
I'm also wondering if there is a realistic way to custom-build or even order a carbine length weapon (16" barrel or so) that is handy for entry but chambers a round substantially more effective against supernaturally tough threats than the 7.62x51mm. Semi-automatic, magazine-fed, at least 10-rounds.

The Mannlicher-Schönauer Grosswildbüchse from Pulp Guns 2 might be an interesting starting point for that. It's quite light and does 5dx2pi+, although the Rcl is horrid. You'd have to eyeball a semi-auto gun for the cartridge.

Icelander 03-11-2016 06:23 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weby (Post 1987798)
Depends on what you want to do. Basically the short .50 bmg rifles are really not suitable for use as carbines, you need to use the rest.

Normal people do. World class experts in the real world, like Jerry Miculek, can do just fine standing up. And if the PCs are supposed to take on supernaturally tough monsters and survive, not once but multiple times, I'd prefer that they were at least as capable as the top real experts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weby (Post 1987798)
As for building a suitable carbine doing more damage:
.50 beowulf from loadouts monster hunters is a good candidate, but below the 7d (6d+1 pi+), but if you use the optional bigger is better rules it gets the nice x1.8 multiple, so that compensates..
.450 Bushmaster is lower energy and smaller cartridge(only 1.6x multiple with bigger is better)
.45 Raptor is quite a lot higher energy, I wonder how well it can be shot without rest. But the damage profile would fit your criteria as it would be order of magnitude 7d+something of pi+ (though only 1.6x with bigger is better)

I use a modified version of Bigger is Better, where I figure out a Wound Channel Modifier from the size of the projectile, expected tumbling and fragmentation, etc. I use Douglas Cole's system for WCM and eyeball corrections.*

I don't reallly want a .50 pistol bullet that weights 300 grains to have a better Wound Channel Modifier than a 400 grain rifle bullet that happens to be chambered in .375 or a 510 grain rifle bullet that happens to be chambered in .458.

*Because the ever-increasing linear WCM produced by his system does not play well with GURPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weby (Post 1987798)
In something like .408 CheyTac or .416 Barrett you are talking around 11kj of energy and that is a lot to shoot from anything except a rest and the rifles for such tend to be pretty heavy too...

If ST 14+ is going to be worth it, it helps if there are options for weaponry that really take advantage of the added bulk and strength.

Tomsdad 03-11-2016 06:50 AM

Re: Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]
 
Did the FN BAR come in anything that would get the Pi+ rating? Give it an extended magazine and that could be the way to go


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