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-   -   IQ gain and free talents? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=172184)

timm meyers 02-11-2021 07:51 PM

IQ gain and free talents?
 
I posted this on the FB page as well but thought I might get more indepth answers here.
Been doing a lot of character build trees and keep waffling on whether or not IQ gained should or should not count (500 exp.) towards new talents, spells etc. (like the 80's version)

I know the rules say no, just asking for balance opinions and any actual play results if people have tried it as a house rule. ???

The high cost of attribute gain + the fact you have 3 to agonize over on increase seems to make giving the new IQ an additional 500 xp towards a new talent or spell etc a balanced mod.

As it stands now the rules encourage a 32 pt build with maximum IQ (14 to 16) and low DX(8) & ST(8). The world becomes full of very "Bobble head" unrealistic nerd like citizens. All of which have some superior build in mind like Conan

The Mod could possibly cause the opposite minimal IQ maximized ST & DX but even there it seems more natural and normal.


I looked for a similar post and couldn't find anything but I know this had to have been asked before so sorry for making a duplicate thread.

TippetsTX 02-11-2021 08:39 PM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Part of the challenge with restoring the 'talents for each IQ increase' is that now you are incentivizing early IQ increases in addition to the benefit from maximizing starting IQ. If you put your first 200 XP into IQ, for example, you could pick up a two-point talent like NATURALIST (normally 1000 XP) at an 80% discount.

Steve Plambeck 02-12-2021 04:16 AM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
For me the total costs of all talents on the record sheet better add up to the character's IQ, or my OCD will kick in and I may tear some hair out. So it's the 80's rules for me, including the lower XP costs for raising that IQ.

In our old house rules we treated spells and talents as totally separate memory tracks, so any wizard with IQ 12 had 12 points to spend on talents, and could know 12 spells as well as in original Wizard.

And never once did all that "extra knowledge" on the part of characters ever unbalance play, and we played that way happily nearly 20 straight years.

larsdangly 02-12-2021 08:23 AM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
I consider the new, Legacy Edition, version of the XP rules to be a feature rather than a problem, but it is certainly true that lots of people feel cheated of the talent points they expected to be given for IQ increases.

To me, the new RAW just define the relative costs of things you value (various stats and talents) and can't be considered 'fair' or 'unfair'; if you don't like a cost, then don't pay it and use your XP on something you consider cheaper. If something seems expensive (in XP) but worth it to you, then pay the cost and get the thing you want.

Viewed this way, the various house rules floating around on this point are just good, old fashioned grade inflation something with a long and storied tradition in roleplaying games. I've never seen a game that didn't impose restrictions and 'value propositions' with its experience and advancement system, and I've never seen a community of players that didn't chafe against those rules and try to think of ways to relax them. There can't really be a 'good' or 'bad' response to this sort of issue; you have to decide for yourself how much grade inflation you want your table to use, recognizing that the more you move in this direction the further away you get from other groups and official produced materials.

hcobb 02-12-2021 08:45 AM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Early character progression in Legacy is to add DX to be able to apply your advanced talents more reliably.

You won't adjust ST much because it messes up the warrior's weapon talent selection or caps the future potential of a wizard.

You won't add IQ because it doesn't gain you much.

And you can't afford anything else.

32 attributes plus 5 more DX then 3 more IQ and then you've hit the wall.

Starting Fencer is ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 this evolves into ST 9 (possibly 10), DX 17 (risk only 16?), IQ 14 then add all of the talents in the book.

Crossbow sniper goes ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9 to ST 12, DX 16, IQ 12

And so on.

timm meyers 02-12-2021 10:45 AM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX (Post 2366915)
Part of the challenge with restoring the 'talents for each IQ increase' is that now you are incentivizing early IQ increases in addition to the benefit from maximizing starting IQ. If you put your first 200 XP into IQ, for example, you could pick up a two-point talent like NATURALIST (normally 1000 XP) at an 80% discount.

The system mod I am looking at is a 500 xp gain to be used for talents/spells for each IQ earned. So in your example Naturalist is a 2 pt talent and would require a 1000pt xp expenditure as RAW. If you gained an IQ for 200xp you receive the 500xp bonus with it and could choose to learn naturalist by spending an additional 500xp so the formula would be 200 (for the IQ) + 500xp more = a 30% discount.
Still a savings but I think it balances more with the innate bonus that you get for raising ST or DX as both attributes give you bonuses to hit points and speed/accuracy immediately.

The main reason to raise IQ is for access to higher abilities.

So the opposite side of the RAW equation is that beyond your starting IQ level any ability you wish to learn does not cost 500xp per level but a % greater based on "when" you up your IQ. So if you gained 1 IQ from lvl9 to lvl10 at a cost of 200xp in order to be able to learn Naturalist at 1000xp you have now paid 20% more for the talent. If the IQ raise was later, and cost 500xp, your cost was a 50% increase and ramps up significantly to thousands % points.

I am struggling with the fact that the RAW seems to incentivize bloated IQ starting characters and from my roleplaying narrative I see characters growing in knowledge more natural than increasing their muscle mass by 50%+.

Skarg 02-12-2021 12:27 PM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
The simple version of my current house rule is:

Talents/spells can be learned with study time (generally 3 months per point, can be doing other things as long as study is being done and there is a reasonable way to learn that is being done), up to the IQ of the character. No XP is needed for this.

XP can be spent to increase that limit by 1 per 500 XP. Study is still required.

The spell learning rules in original Advanced Wizard add more detail to this, for spells.

Some intensive training courses may be able to just give a character a talent by completing the training course in game time/effort/risk. This may be like adding 500 XP and giving you extra talent capacity, but you can't later neglect the talent in order to gain a free talent point for studying something else. AKA yes you can train a peasant who already has "full" IQ used to be able to fight with a spear and shield by putting them through basic training.

Some talents may become available, nor not be available, due to conditions and GM discretion. e.g. Mostly you can't just choose to learn/study Acute Hearing, or learn to swim without enough water. Or the GM may judge your PC already has enough practice with something to add a talent.

Some XP may be awarded by the GM that has notes attached and can only be used for certain things, in particular adding a talent.

Shostak 02-12-2021 01:12 PM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by timm meyers (Post 2367019)
The main reason to raise IQ is for access to higher abilities.

That brings up an interesting point about why "higher" abilities require higher IQ than human average. For instance, why is Disguise IQ 14?

hcobb 02-12-2021 02:52 PM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2367046)
That brings up an interesting point about why "higher" abilities require higher IQ than human average. For instance, why is Disguise IQ 14?

In order to have a reasonable chance of success.

David Bofinger 02-12-2021 05:10 PM

Re: IQ gain and free talents?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak (Post 2367046)
That brings up an interesting point about why "higher" abilities require higher IQ than human average. For instance, why is Disguise IQ 14?

There's a few talents like that, though Disguise is probably the most spectacular. Should Woodsman be higher IQ than Naturalist? Master Bard. Stealth. Conversely, should Lawyer be IQ 8?

IQ has multiple meanings in TFT: the abstract reasoning of Mathematician, the information retention of Master Physicker, the perception of Detect Lies, the whatever-it-is of Unarmed Combat V (information retention? strength of will?). Most high-IQ talents can be justified in terms of one of these.


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