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-   -   Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Archer) (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=174068)

Varyon 10-22-2021 07:10 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400646)
This new post is less about bows vs melee and more about thrust vs swing. Swing is clearly better at strengths 13+ and only get better and better with higher strengths and weapon mastery to where Thrust shouldn't be considered. I want that closer balanced.

There's a few options there. One, as mentioned earlier in the thread, is to make the Weapon Master boost static rather than per-die - +2 to damage (full stop) at DX+1, +4 to damage (full stop) at DX+2 or higher. Another is to make swing be a static bonus compared to thrust - I believe Know Your Own Strength did this, with swing being consistently +2 compared to thrust.

Of course, that last bit is arguably a case where you aren't really making thrust better, you're just making swing worse. I can't remember the name of the story (EDIT: found it, it's "Harrison Bergeron," by Kurt Vonnegut) but I recall one where TPTB decided the best way to make everyone equal was to force people who were smarter than others to wear a headset that frequently played loud, sharp sounds to disrupt their thoughts, and people who were stronger and better-coordinated than others had to wear a weighted sack around their neck (or in extreme cases, manacles) to keep them from having an advantage. This is similar, "elevating" thrust-based weapons by just making all the better weapons worse. I think of this as the stick approach as opposed to the carrot approach - in this case, the latter would be to actually elevate thrust-based weapons. You may want to consider having the swing-based damage table be the same (+1 to damage for every +1 to ST), then have the thrust-based damage table simply be that at -2. I think Know Your Own Strength did something similar, although I don't recall if it based things on the current swing table or not.

DouglasCole 10-22-2021 08:40 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
For what it’s worth, I have played in several sessions where swing was thrust +2, using the standard dungeon fantasy role-playing game progression otherwise, and it was simply fantastic. The knock-on effects are surprisingly interesting. You don’t need as much damage resistance to be protected, martial artists become viable, and other factors where choice between thrust and swing is more equal. It really was a positive change in my experience.

Boge 10-22-2021 04:48 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
That works to a point, but with higher strength TH attacks outpace SW attacks.

Varyon 10-25-2021 09:29 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400752)
That works to a point, but with higher strength TH attacks outpace SW attacks.

Err... if sw is always thr+2, thr literally cannot overtake sw. Granted, with high enough ST that +2 ends up not making any appreciable difference - the difference between 10d (35 average) and 10d+2 (37 average), for example, is somewhere around 5%, which is small enough to be generally ignorable.

Now, there are weapons where thr damage gets enough of a bonus compared to sw damage that thr would end up outright more powerful. I think spears (which can be used like staves for sw damage) are in this category, as are perhaps katars and patas. This basically would just work out as there being fewer cases where you'd use such weapons for swings (typically, just for a different damage type - cr for spears, cut for katars), but such weapons aren't terribly swing-friendly to start with. Sw imp getting stuck may be worth a rethink in such a paradigm, however - currently that's something of a balancing factor* (imp has the highest wounding modifier, plus has some nice hit location options, so getting it with swing damage is a Big Deal), but that's not as necessary when sw is only thr+2 instead of roughly thrx2.

*There's also realism involved in it, but thrust impaling weapons - and even cutting weapons, just ask anyone who has chopped wood - realistically have a risk of getting stuck as well, and ignoring that doesn't really break immersion; doing the same for sw imp shouldn't either.

Boge 10-25-2021 02:04 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Because of the 1.5x cutting damage vs the 2x impaling damage, if you gain +1 TH and +1 SW each level, yeah, thrust damage does overtake swing damage.

But because you gain +1 Swing damage per level and only +1 Thrust every two levels, Swing overtakes Thrust, especially considering weapon master bonuses.

I understand the realism of swinging doing more damage than thrust. But at the end of the day, this is a game and needs better balancing with the damages, in my opinion.

Farmer 10-25-2021 02:25 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Armour divisors and access to increased damage multipliers for certain attack types/locations (and different armour types with varying resistances) can help to balance things out. You also have aspects of reach and the advantage that can bring, and when it can be used based on space/environment/etc. (thrust attacks at a longer reach might be less restricted, for example, or the readying of the weapon). You can set stop thrust against a charging attacker. Spikes on shields. The list goes on. I think it's more of an issue if you don't look at all the variables already available.

Boge 10-25-2021 05:29 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmer (Post 2401031)
Armour divisors and access to increased damage multipliers for certain attack types/locations (and different armour types with varying resistances) can help to balance things out. You also have aspects of reach and the advantage that can bring, and when it can be used based on space/environment/etc. (thrust attacks at a longer reach might be less restricted, for example, or the readying of the weapon). You can set stop thrust against a charging attacker. Spikes on shields. The list goes on. I think it's more of an issue if you don't look at all the variables already available.

Good points. Most of what you mentioned is available in game. We just rarely take it into consideration.

Varyon 10-26-2021 08:42 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2401023)
Because of the 1.5x cutting damage vs the 2x impaling damage, if you gain +1 TH and +1 SW each level, yeah, thrust damage does overtake swing damage.

That's not thrust damage overtaking swing, really, it's just that the typical Wounding Modifiers for imp (typically thr) and cut (typically sw) result in thrust tending to do more Injury than swing against unarmored/lightly-armored foes (although what counts as "lightly-armored" against you shifts depending on ST). At thr of 1d and sw=thr+2 (and equal bonuses to thr and sw from the sword), you're looking at 3.5->7 HP Injury vs 5.5->8.25 HP Injury against DR 0, 2.5->5 vs 4.5->6.75 against DR 1, etc, with sw cut "gaining" +0.5 HP Injury over thr imp for every point of DR in play. Against DR 0, thr imp Injury equals that of sw cut at thr=2d-1 (and overtakes it thereafter, at +0.5 HP Injury per +1 to damage)... against DR 0. Against DR 1, that instead happens at 2d, against DR 2 at 2d+1, and so forth.

And, of course, that's for hits to the Torso on a normal human (or animal). Against targets with Injury Tolerance: Unliving (like undead, machines, etc) or Homogenous (like golems, chests, etc), sw cut will always have the advantage. Similarly, limbs and extremities downgrade imp to a x1 WM (unless I'm conflating Imp with Pi+/++), while cut stays at x1.5, so when aiming for such targets sw cut is at an advantage. This is also the case (albeit to a lesser extent) if aiming at the Neck or Skull, where the WM is the same (x2) for each, so the +2 damage for sw cut makes it better. On the flip side, however, thr imp can target a few high-value hit locations that are off-limits to sw cut, like the Vitals and Eye.

Overall, I think the idea would work fairly well, particularly for DF or similar where dealing with foes with various Injury Tolerances, Vulnerabilities, etc is somewhat common. That said, of course, you're by no means required to make use of it - if you prefer that sw generally be around 2xthr (as it currently is), that's certainly workable as well. Per-die bonuses sound like they'll favor sw too much for your preferences in that case, so sticking with static ones will probably work out best for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2401023)
I understand the realism of swinging doing more damage than thrust. But at the end of the day, this is a game and needs better balancing with the damages, in my opinion.

One idea I like, which is potentially workable for the common thr imp vs sw cut, is to have the former deal less damage, but have better anti-armor performance and hit locations. I'd need to play with numbers to get something fair - ideally, you'd be looking at sw cut being better against unarmored/lightly-armored targets, but thr imp being better against more heavily armored targets (possibly with the option of taking a to-hit penalty to do Injury more on par with sw cut against the unarmored ones - note attacking the Vitals already accomplishes this to a certain extent). This may be accomplishable with simple armor divisors, making it easier to (partially) bypass armor with thr imp (which is sort-of already the case, although -8 to hit is pretty significant), judicious application of LT's edge protection rules, etc.

Boge 10-26-2021 11:35 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
We tried the "Knowing Your Own Strength" change before and the GM didn't like that one of our characters was punching for 2d+.


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