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-   -   Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Archer) (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=174068)

Fred Brackin 10-20-2021 12:13 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400454)
.

I think it would also keep unskilled characters with Weapon Master All in check. A character that never picked up an axe shouldn't be able to hit someone for an extra 4 damage in my opinion.

The Basic Set shares your opinion. He doesn't get any bonus there either. You ahve to know the weapon skill at DX +1 or +2. The awarding bonuses per die just keeps small weapons and users from being disproportionately benefited over large ones.

Boge 10-20-2021 02:40 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 2400467)
The Basic Set shares your opinion. He doesn't get any bonus there either. You ahve to know the weapon skill at DX +1 or +2. The awarding bonuses per die just keeps small weapons and users from being disproportionately benefited over large ones.

Right...durr. I knew that. Sorry.

But what I find is that weapon master scales too much with strength. It should scale more based off DX. So I hope our group changes it.

Rupert 10-20-2021 05:41 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400502)
Right...durr. I knew that. Sorry.

But what I find is that weapon master scales too much with strength. It should scale more based off DX. So I hope our group changes it.

Weapon Master's bonus scales with damage, as a fixed fraction. Thus if it scales too strongly either the bonus is too big (and you only notice with the bigger numbers) or damage itself scales off ST too strongly (which a lot of people think is the case for swing damage).

As for damage scaling off DX - DX is already a very powerful combat stat. Making damage as well as hitting and not being hit scale off it might be too much.

Varyon 10-21-2021 07:27 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2388954)
What suggestions would you have just for a reduced price for Weapon Master Bow vs other melee weapons? If Weapon Master Sword is 20 points, my group feels Bow doesn't benefit as much, so what cost should Weapon Master Bow be if it's reduced?

I know I gave a different response earlier in the thread, but another idea is to let the [20] version of Weapon Master (Bow) cover all bows, not just a single design. Normally, that [20] would allow for Weapon Master (Regular Bow), Weapon Master (Long Bow), Weapon Master (Short Bow) or similar. General Weapon Master (Bow) should probably cost [30], as it covers a Small Group (all bows - the above plus reflex bow, composite bow, etc). Discounting that down to [20] gives an appropriate discount to make up for bows getting no Parry benefit (unless you have DF's Bow Fencer, anyway), and now your character can basically pick up any bow (of appropriate draw weight) and go to town with it.

DouglasCole 10-21-2021 10:03 AM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2400518)
As for damage scaling off DX - DX is already a very powerful combat stat. Making damage as well as hitting and not being hit scale off it might be too much.

The canonical way to increase damage with DX/skill is "shoot them somewhere important, like the vitals, brain, chinks in armor, or brain-through-the-eyes." (I know you know this already).

Boge 10-21-2021 01:55 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
I mean based off weapon skill over your DX. So a weapon skill DX+1 would grant you +1 damage. Skill DX+3 would give +3 damage up to a max of +4, maybe +5.

Incase any of you are curious:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Chart showing the average damages TH vs SW with weapon master. Normal vs modded. I didn't enter Swing damage to vitals as it's not common in our Gurps. I like how the change flattens the curve a bit.

Boge 10-21-2021 02:01 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2400601)
The canonical way to increase damage with DX/skill is "shoot them somewhere important, like the vitals, brain, chinks in armor, or brain-through-the-eyes." (I know you know this already).

It doesn't work when you can't penetrate their armor or skull because even with weapon master you're still rolling 1d+1. That's been my experience with a bow, although I don't have weapon master, but that would only give me a +2 damage which would still be low. So far my experience has been about a 50% chance to do damage to my foe. And when I do it's only around 2-4 damage after impaling bonuses.

Meanwhile, our warrior is cutting with an axe twice per round with rapid strikes for 8-12 damage averages. Same ST, by the way.

Farmer 10-21-2021 02:25 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
The warrior should also be at risk of return melee attacks, where as with a bow you likely aren't.

What you seem to need is some level of AD for your arrows (although as mentioned, shooting for chinks in armour would half the enemy DR in most cases, unless it's natural DR).

If you didn't want the expense of arrows crafted or magicked to provide AD, what about something like a Perk that for every +3 or +4 above DX, and assuming TBaM or WM, you get a level of AD? If it seems too strong, make it +5. It represents extraodinary training and skill allows the arrows to be aimed/twisted/etc. such that they tend to cut through DR?

Also, you may have already buyt if not have you considered Strong Bow? the extra +1 damage would help with both DR penetration and final damage.

Fred Brackin 10-21-2021 02:26 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boge (Post 2400621)
It doesn't work when you can't penetrate their armor or skull because even with weapon master you're still rolling 1d+1.u.

Bows are muscle powered weapons. You're not going to do damage without muscle. You're meant to buy raw ST and then expand that with Foot Archery Style leading to the Strongbow Perk and then WM:Bow and probably Arm ST after that.

Regular ST 14 with Arm ST +3 plus Strongbow and WM gets you to a ST19 bow and doing 2D+5. Impaling.

Boge 10-21-2021 10:53 PM

Re: Weapon master (Bow) cost reduction, and suggestions on Weapon Master (Ranger/Arch
 
This new post is less about bows vs melee and more about thrust vs swing. Swing is clearly better at strengths 13+ and only get better and better with higher strengths and weapon mastery to where Thrust shouldn't be considered. I want that closer balanced.


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