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-   -   detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=171724)

Plane 12-31-2020 02:02 PM

detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
There's a character who does this in the new Duck Tales (I won't mention who as it's a bit of a spoiler: happens in season 2 episode 7) when using it to smack a monster in it's eyes (normally not possible with blunt weapons but it's high SM with eyes larger than entire character so I think we could make an exception)

Aside from "my skill with a club exceeds my skill with brawling" as an explanation (which I'm not sure would be correct in this example) I'm wondering if going high-crunch Martial Arts / Technical Grappling explanations we could explain why someone would make this choice.

By removing your leg you suffer as Lame: Missing Leg so this is a huge deal. B141 says "Without your crutches or peg leg, you cannot stand" but since IRL there are people who can balance on one leg, I'm going to interpret that as "cannot use Change Posture to stand UP" rather than "cannot remain standing". IE if you use a crutch to stand you can remain standing.

"Using crutches or a peg leg, you can stand up and walk" also means you could only jump on one leg (ie hopscotch) and there should probably be some kind of DX roll to avoid falling down after one-legged hops: I figure assume that jumps are done 2-legged so the -6 to DX would apply.

In the case of this battle, the character is holding an improvised staff which I think would function like a crutch because even though it's not in contact with the ground, the monster is grappling the weapon and trying to pull it upward, so it would serve as a brace to maintain balance: there's little weight on the duck's one leg because she's basically trying to sink down and use her weight to pull the weapon down and away from the creature who is trying to steal+eat it.

I imagine this functions something like Injury Tolerance: Independent Body Parts (1 leg only) as I've seen for I think Kromm's writeup on "bionic arm as 0pt feature" except with the added benefit that you can opt to voluntarily detach the limb without causing damage to it. Which might be something like Shapeshifting (requires DX roll) which changes your template to include Crushing Attack (reach 1, gadget) and Missing Leg.

Aside from that though: a reach 1 club isn't better reach than a leg since you can kick at reach 1 as well.

In terms of striking at a tall foe directly above though: common sense is that you can actually reach/punch further ovehead than you are able to kick. This is best understood when using a lying/crawling position taking up 2 hexes: the reach 1 of kicks is in respect to the hex the lower body occupies, so you have equal (not better) reach than punches for things which are 1 hex from upper body and 2 hexes from lower body.

This would apply if standing too, which i think is the point: detaching the leg allows you to use it's reach 1 length starting from the upper body "stacked hex" rather than the lower body's hex.

If this were "a leg attached to the shoulder socket" you already have a height advantage in respect to "a leg attached to the hip socket" but when you're wielding the leg via an arm, the total reach would actually be extended by the arm's length too.

That makes me wonder: should the reach 1 of a leg if wielded by an arm possibly give reach 2?

Weapons much shorter than legs (like knives) gain reach 1 for merit of tacking on a bit extra to a punch's reach C, they clearly would be reach C as well if they were just a knife mounted on the torso.

I guess another issue might be access to swing damage, though being able to use swing-crushing to target an eye is even more edge-territory than using thrust-crushing: it's easier to poke someone in the eye with a pool cue (tip of staff) than by swinging with the broad side of a staff. That this happens here is just I think a symptom of the huge SM of the creature and the huge (even relative to its SM) size of it's giant eyes.

We could probably have some kind of rule for being able to use crushing attacks (being assigned various equiv SV) targeting eyes. "Eye Poke" for example subs finger for fist (lowering SM of attacking part) to target a human eye, but a standard punch/fist to eye should be able to target eyes of giants (or people with just larger than normal eyes) without needing to use fingers or even tip-thrusts instead of broad-smacks.

AlexanderHowl 12-31-2020 02:27 PM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
No, you fall down without any support because your balance is thrown off because your leg is in your hands rather than where it should be. Your body also still thinks the leg is attached due to phantom sensations, so you fall because the unconscious adjustments of stance to catch yourself fail.

RedMattis 12-31-2020 02:48 PM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2360674)
No, you fall down without any support because your balance is thrown off because your leg is in your hands rather than where it should be. Your body also still thinks the leg is attached due to phantom sensations, so you fall because the unconscious adjustments of stance to catch yourself fail.

Is this the no fun allowed club? :p

Jokes aside, I don't see any issues removing a leg in cinematic or realistic settings, especially not if the leg is made to be removable/replaceable. It depends on how it is wired to the person; it might even be largely handled by AI instead of just plugging into the brain/nervous system.

Probably the bionic leg functions as a somewhat awkward club with a length based on, well, its length. For most legs wielded around the ankle this would probably be a range 1-2 weapon of somewhat unimpressive stats (unless the bionic leg is heavier and harder than a regular leg). If you poke someone with the leg it probably qualifies as a range 2 weapon even if it would otherwise be range 1.

Unless it is a very cinematic setting (rule of cool!) balance isn't a factor I would penalty the attack roll since you're lacking a leg to stand/move around on.

Actually being able to detach your leg sounds like a perk at best. If anyone can do it with some effort then the leg probably qualifies as a Mitigator for "One Leg" with a value based on how easy it is to remove/hard it is to replace/how much plot-protection it has.

Flyndaran 12-31-2020 06:03 PM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
Legs meant to look natural are probably going to be a bit soft. That should reduce the impact damage a hint like the opposite of the perk for making one's flesh "hard".
Then again, a full leg would include the knee making it flexible like a really poor man's flail.
I could also see an exceptionally unlikely realistic scenario where that arm plus artificial leg reach would be necessary.

JulianLW 12-31-2020 06:59 PM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
Oh, a leg! You're looking for a leg! Actually, I think there is one back there, somewhere....

Plane 01-01-2021 03:24 PM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2360674)
you fall down without any support because your balance is thrown off because your leg is in your hands rather than where it should be.

How do lose your balance when pulling down on something above you though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl (Post 2360674)
Your body also still thinks the leg is attached due to phantom sensations, so you fall because the unconscious adjustments of stance to catch yourself fail.

This part does seem realistic: a 2-legged person can train to remain standing on 1 leg, while a 1-legged person can also train to remain standing on 1 leg, but in either case they are accustomed to either having or not having that extra weight, so changing would be an unusual situation:

1) a 2-legged person who recently loses a leg should find it harder to balance
2) a 1-legged person who recently gains a leg should fine it harder to balance

Neither should be impossible though, since people learn to balance with different load %s all the time, it could be soft-capped w/ penalties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMattis (Post 2360678)
Probably the bionic leg functions as a somewhat awkward club with a length based on, well, its length.

If it's a no-joint peg leg (ie Wirt's leg being a literal club in diablo 2) then yes, though on 2nd thought if the knee joint has mobility it might function more like a flail?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran (Post 2360716)
Legs meant to look natural are probably going to be a bit soft. That should reduce the impact damage a hint like the opposite of the perk for making one's flesh "hard".

as compared to a kick?

funny now that I think of it there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to 'hammer fist' for attacks w/ leg where you can take 'hurting yourself' ratio of 1/10 instead of 1/5

RedMattis 01-02-2021 02:01 AM

Re: detaching bionic leg to use as club instead of just kicking with it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2360861)
This part does seem realistic: a 2-legged person can train to remain standing on 1 leg, while a 1-legged person can also train to remain standing on 1 leg, but in either case they are accustomed to either having or not having that extra weight, so changing would be an unusual situation:

1) a 2-legged person who recently loses a leg should find it harder to balance
2) a 1-legged person who recently gains a leg should fine it harder to balance

Neither should be impossible though, since people learn to balance with different load %s all the time, it could be soft-capped w/ penalties.

Attaching a weight to one of your legs and then switching between standing of different legs isn't particularily difficult though. I think someone with the martial skill to attempt the leg-club/leg flail probably has pretty good balance. Either way the advantage "Perfect Balance" would of course negate any such penalties. Jumping around on one leg in an attempt to hit someone with the other (bionic) leg that really does sound difficult though.


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