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-   -   [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=164977)

Ultraviolet 08-09-2019 01:25 PM

[TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
I like TG
And I like the Clinch Perk, allowing a striker a limited grappling option .

But how about when the striker gets grappled and wants to break free?
Would it be unbalancing to allow a Perk for this? Representing training in avoiding grapples.

Plane 08-09-2019 09:02 PM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
That seems like a pretty reasonable use for a Skill Adaptation perk.

malloyd 08-10-2019 11:42 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane (Post 2278744)
That seems like a pretty reasonable use for a Skill Adaptation perk.

I'd certainly allow that for any weapon skill that includes something usable at reach C.

If you want it for your Polearm skill I might insist on a bit of justifying backstory, and/or require you to spend a couple points on a grappling skill as a prerequisite, but it's hardly unimaginable that some Polearm instructors include regular Break Free drills in their training program, and positively reasonable some martial art school exists that teaches both and would let you do most of your practice sessions with your halberd.

Plane 08-11-2019 07:36 PM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
The OP was about Strikers (which use Brawling) but you raise a good question about adapting Break Free as a technique for weapons, very interesting!

Let's see what precedents exist...

B370 once someone has grabbed ahold of your weapon it's a Regular Contest of ST v ST to see who lets go, doesn't seem like skill even comes into it.

MA68 when trying to break free of "Bind Weapon" is a quick contest of the target's weapon skill vs the attacker's Bind Weapon skill, so skill with the weapon is really helpful in breaking the weapon free of a grapple in that contest (grappled by a binding weapon, not generic weapon grapples).

MA78 allows ST-based Retain Weapon rolls in place of ST when rolling the regular contest B370 refers to, as well as against B401's more instantaneous disarms.

This says it defaults to the weapon skill however, meaning anyone with DX+1 in their weapon skill is basically ST+1 to resist that Regular Contest.

I'm pretty sure that would include polearms, so they should be as good as any other at breaking free of grapples on the weapon itself...

As for breaking OTHER grapples though, you might apply that -4 per yard of length (Long Weapons in Close Combat) to make them less useful for escaping grapples of your own limbs rather than grapples on your weapon.

Cole's notes actually specify (TG34 expansion to "Armed Grapple" from MA67)

You may perform techniques based on unarmed grappling skills only if you have spent points in those skills;
base the technique on the lower of your Melee Weapon skill or your unarmed grappling skill.


So even someone without Technique Adaptation (Break Free uses Weapon) should be able to do them IF the set up an armed grapple first.

It's of course better to have technique adaptation since then you don't need to successfully initiate a grapple first to begin using Break Free, you could just use it right away.

Ultraviolet 08-12-2019 05:05 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
I see now that my initial post was phrasewd in a way thet (a detail of) it could be misunderstood.

When I wrote "striker" i actually meant "fighter using a striking skill" in the same way that saying "a grappler" means "a fighter using a grappling skill".

I did not mean Striker as in "body part used only to strike with", I apologize.

It was about a fighter with no grappling skills being allowed to use his striking skill to Break Free.

However the answers given are quite enlightening.
It seems Skill Adaptation Perk (allow Break Free with Brawling (or whatever)) is the fix. And Training Bonus should use slow progression.

Thanks.

I love TG, and have adapted it into an ongoing Cliffhanger campaign. Several of the players have taken a liking to it, the rest just accept it. Few of them know the rules well yet, but we're getting there.
A player has just returned after almost 2 years break. He plays daring adventuress Cassandra Harker, who uses Wrestling to do the Parry->Arm Lock->Throw from Lock. Little has changes for this by adapting TG.

DouglasCole 08-12-2019 09:04 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Jumping in fairly late:

One way to use striking to get out of a grapple might be to simply attack the body parts doing the grapple. "I punch their arm" sort of thing. If you can overcome whatever DX (and ST, if using TG rather than FDG) penalties are on you to punch them while they're grappling you, then allowing some or all of the damage to reduce control points as well would be kinda fun, and I (perhaps?) remember something being said in Martial Arts, I think, about this practice.

Brawling in particular has always been a bit grabby, so allowing counter-grapples using a slow progression, or (with the Clinch) perk to default to Skill-2 (like the default for Armed Grapple) or Skill-4 or Skill-5 but improvable as a Hard Technique might be a way to point-cost it out.

I tend to be wary-in-theory of cross-over like this, but since "Judo Throw defaults to Axe" and "Judo Throw defaults to Shield" have both appeared on my character sheets in the past, the Technique Adaptation methodology seems appropriate. The only hesitation is that making and breaking grapples is a "core skill" thing, but since you're only attacking to shed a grapple, not make one, well . . . it'll do.

Plane 08-12-2019 09:31 PM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2279100)
If you can overcome whatever DX (and ST, if using TG rather than FDG) penalties are on you to punch them while they're grappling you

I do like avoiding the hard cap of "absolutely can't attack with a grappled limb" though there should probably be some limited form of that like "you can't punch a hand that is grappling your arm with that arm"

Maybe with some exception for "Extra-Flexible" arms with 3 elbows or something which actually might allow weird stuff like a fist hitting it's own bicep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2279100)
allowing some or all of the damage to reduce control points as well would be kinda fun, and I (perhaps?) remember something being said in Martial Arts, I think, about this practice.

MA did not have control points, so closest I can think is MA119 "Pain in Close Combat" which had:

If you wound him, his shock penalty (-1 to -4) lowers his ST as well as his DX if you try to break free.
However, the penalty vanishes before your next turn
Since TG allows you to do DX-based parries against Break Free, if you allow shock to subtract DX from active defenses (it normally doesn't, I think, only attacks) that'd be one solve. Or if using a ST-based parry instead of DX, a similar benefit.

Did TG use "temporary control point loss" anywhere?

It also continues:
  • If you’re injured, your shock penalty applies to your attack rolls and your ST rolls to
    break free!
In technical grappling, shock would already reduce your DX-based attack roll to break free so I don't know if that means it should reduce the ST-based Control Point roll too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2279100)
Brawling in particular has always been a bit grabby, so allowing counter-grapples using a slow progression, or (with the Clinch) perk to default to Skill-2 (like the default for Armed Grapple) or Skill-4 or Skill-5 but improvable as a Hard Technique might be a way to point-cost it out.

One thing about defaulting it to Brawling-2 is that Brawling is Easy compared to Judo being Hard, so you get the effect of Brawlers being just as good at basic grappling as Judoka.

Then again, "Armed Grappling" for easy weapons in general has that problem...

If you had "Weak Grip 3" you'd be -3 to Judo, and weapons don't have a "grip" at all (like grappling with paws, no fingers) so maybe Armed Grapples should have another -4?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2279100)
I tend to be wary-in-theory of cross-over like this, but since "Judo Throw defaults to Axe" and "Judo Throw defaults to Shield" have both appeared on my character sheets in the past, the Technique Adaptation methodology seems appropriate. The only hesitation is that making and breaking grapples is a "core skill" thing, but since you're only attacking to shed a grapple, not make one, well . . . it'll do.

I remember core skills were banned for Technique Mastery, but not for Technique Adaptation. You can't have "Karate Punch defaults to Judo" ?

Ultraviolet 08-13-2019 12:08 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Ok, so I see two possible methods to use, to cut some slack for a fighter who only has striking skills and no grappling skills, who is Grappled and wants to Break Free.

I think this is reasonable, since some striking martial arts should teach defenses against grapplers i.e. Break Free.
Since Break Free removes CP based on full ST it can't be a thing done with just one arm, I assume both arms as well as twisting of the body is used.

1) Allow Skill Adaptation Perk: Break Free using [striking skill]. It needs to be specialized in a specific striking skill. Training bonus is calculated from striking skill using slow progression.
-But what is Active Control calculated from? If the Grapple is on an arm, is the Break Free penalized by CP/2? More than than one arm is used, I assume. If the GRapple is on the torso, and the Break Free is treated like a full-body activity, is it penalized by CP/2, or are the arms integral for the Break Free so the penalty for the arms (CP/4) is used?

2) Allow a striking attack on the arm (or one of them) which has the grapple on you. I assume you can't attack with an arm being held, but usig the other arm then. Active Control would be CP/4 by not attacking with the arm held.
Roll the striking damage, but reduce CP of the the grapple rather than apply real damage.
-But is damage bonus to the strike the normal damage bonus, og should one calculate damage from Trained ST based on the striking skill (slow progression I assume)?

Of the two, I prefer 1) since it is closer to "normal TG Break Free". I feel 2) is mixing apples and punching-damage-oranges. But to each his own.

In my ongoing Cliffhanger campaign, which has had TG implemented well underway, there are perhaps 3 characters with no grappling skills only striking. Two of them aren't serious fighters anyway, but with low (well, average...) ST they are severely crippled if Grappled. The third has ST 10 as well but a high level of Karate. I might give them Skill Adaptation Perk: Break Free using [striking skill] for free. The current adventure is one with zombies - slow, grappling zombies.

Tomsdad 08-13-2019 03:45 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2279100)
Jumping in fairly late:

One way to use striking to get out of a grapple might be to simply attack the body parts doing the grapple. "I punch their arm" sort of thing. If you can overcome whatever DX (and ST, if using TG rather than FDG) penalties are on you to punch them while they're grappling you, then allowing some or all of the damage to reduce control points as well would be kinda fun, and I (perhaps?) remember something being said in Martial Arts, I think, about this practice.

Brawling in particular has always been a bit grabby, so allowing counter-grapples using a slow progression, or (with the Clinch) perk to default to Skill-2 (like the default for Armed Grapple) or Skill-4 or Skill-5 but improvable as a Hard Technique might be a way to point-cost it out.

I tend to be wary-in-theory of cross-over like this, but since "Judo Throw defaults to Axe" and "Judo Throw defaults to Shield" have both appeared on my character sheets in the past, the Technique Adaptation methodology seems appropriate. The only hesitation is that making and breaking grapples is a "core skill" thing, but since you're only attacking to shed a grapple, not make one, well . . . it'll do.

I like the idea of removing CP with damage. Another way to go might be have any shock penalty caused by damage to reduce defending against a breaking free attempt*. A hard enough knee to the bollocks (with it's dbl shock pen in GURPS terms) will often break a grapple! Of course a failed knockdown/stun check will end a grapple pretty quick too, and some targets in a potential grapple situation could do this without needing to the get the Major wound HP/2 threshold!


*hmm might not work with the duration of the shock though if it wasn't done in the same turn

DouglasCole 08-13-2019 07:37 AM

Re: [TG] Perk to allow Break Free with striking skill?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet (Post 2279217)
Ok, so I see two possible methods to use, to cut some slack for a fighter who only has striking skills and no grappling skills, who is Grappled and wants to Break Free.

I think this is reasonable, since some striking martial arts should teach defenses against grapplers i.e. Break Free.
Since Break Free removes CP based on full ST it can't be a thing done with just one arm, I assume both arms as well as twisting of the body is used.

1) Allow Skill Adaptation Perk: Break Free using [striking skill]. It needs to be specialized in a specific striking skill. Training bonus is calculated from striking skill using slow progression.
-But what is Active Control calculated from? If the Grapple is on an arm, is the Break Free penalized by CP/2? More than than one arm is used, I assume. If the GRapple is on the torso, and the Break Free is treated like a full-body activity, is it penalized by CP/2, or are the arms integral for the Break Free so the penalty for the arms (CP/4) is used?

And this is why referred control was banished from "Fantastic Dungeon Grappling."

It's a neat idea, but ultimately more complex than it's worth.

Basically, for most cases, just apply the full calculated DX and ST penalties based on total control points. Combat skills are especially important for full-body control and balance. I'd only do the half-penalties thing if there's a solid, GM-approved "He's grabbing my torso, I'm using my free arm to do an elbow strike to his ribs!" type of thing.

Quote:

2) Allow a striking attack on the arm (or one of them) which has the grapple on you. I assume you can't attack with an arm being held, but usig the other arm then. Active Control would be CP/4 by not attacking with the arm held.
Roll the striking damage, but reduce CP of the the grapple rather than apply real damage.
-But is damage bonus to the strike the normal damage bonus, og should one calculate damage from Trained ST based on the striking skill (slow progression I assume)?
For strikes used to break grapples, I'd use the grappling ST progression if one is going full complexity.

Quote:

Of the two, I prefer 1) since it is closer to "normal TG Break Free". I feel 2) is mixing apples and punching-damage-oranges. But to each his own.

In my ongoing Cliffhanger campaign, which has had TG implemented well underway, there are perhaps 3 characters with no grappling skills only striking. Two of them aren't serious fighters anyway, but with low (well, average...) ST they are severely crippled if Grappled. The third has ST 10 as well but a high level of Karate. I might give them Skill Adaptation Perk: Break Free using [striking skill] for free. The current adventure is one with zombies - slow, grappling zombies.
You might get a lot of mileage out of the rules tweaks from Fantastic Dungeon Grappling in that scenario, as well.


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