Steve Jackson Games Forums

Steve Jackson Games Forums (http://forums.sjgames.com/index.php)
-   GURPS (http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   [HT] Grenades fuse (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=166988)

GWJ 01-05-2020 05:24 PM

[HT] Grenades fuse
 
There are some fuse ranges in the table - how they should be understanded? For example fuse 4-5:

a) user decides in the moment of pulling the pin
b) user decides in the moment of buying the grenade
c) random time (50/50) - either 4 or 5 seconds

?

Fred Brackin 01-05-2020 05:54 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303265)
There are some fuse ranges in the table - how they should be understanded? For example fuse 4-5:

a) user decides in the moment of pulling the pin
b) user decides in the moment of buying the grenade
c) random time (50/50) - either 4 or 5 seconds

?

It's (C). Grenade fuses are not all that precise.

GWJ 01-06-2020 02:20 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Are there any rules for thrown grenades about "how many seconds will pass before it reach the destination"? Or for bouncing after impact? :P We plan to play in tactical shooter with heavy grenade usage, so I think it will be important issue.

evileeyore 01-06-2020 05:19 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303320)
Are there any rules for thrown grenades about "how many seconds will pass before it reach the destination"?

That's determined by the length of the fuse.

Quote:

Or for bouncing after impact?
Scatter rules are in Basic pg 414.


For the most part in GURPS, grenade timing is handwaved to a "it explodes immediately after being thrown/fired", because in real life most people do not act as fast or as precisely as GURPS Characters do.

However, if you're implementing the full OODA loop (some sort of Per and Tactics roll each turn to properly implement a change in action), and your PCs aren't going to be acrobatically flipping away from a 4 second grenade the moment it lands, then I'd go ahead and actually count the passage of turns before a grenade explodes. If not, then I'd handwave away grenade timing. Or have enemies cook off a grenade before throwing it (so on a significant failure the grenade actually goes off in hand or during flight). Launched grenades can have 'split-second' fuses (TL 7+) and just be handwaved even in an OODA loop game.

GWJ 01-06-2020 07:34 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303330)
That's determined by the length of the fuse.

So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses? :P Specifically, I'm thinking about situations like this:

I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?

And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?

Rupert 01-06-2020 08:28 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

If flight time really matters, I'd rule that a throw of under half the thrower's maximum distance lands at the end of their current turn, and one over that lands at the beginning of their next. The fuse would 'tick' at the start of their turn, so a 1s fuse can't be safely 'cooked off' - it'll go off in your hand.

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

The Colonel 01-06-2020 08:42 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

If flight time really matters, I'd rule that a throw of under half the thrower's maximum distance lands at the end of their current turn, and one over that lands at the beginning of their next. The fuse would 'tick' at the start of their turn, so a 1s fuse can't be safely 'cooked off' - it'll go off in your hand.

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

...and not just in GURPS it must be said. As for unreliable fuses, according to Ian Hogg Japanese grenade fuses captured during WW2 were so variable that some of them were effectively on a 0 second delay although other opinion thinks those may have been deliberately designed for booby trapping.

Even more fun have been the various impact detonating fuses for hand grenades - Breda made a particularly amusing type that would sometimes detonate on impact, sometimes a bit later, sometimes when the grenade was next moved and sometimes never. There was no realistic way of telling in advance what exactly would happen when you threw one...

GWJ 01-06-2020 10:13 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
Whether a grenade stops where it lands or bounces depends on many things, such as whether it was thrown hard or lobbed, and what ground it lands on. If it's soft forest humus, it'll just stop, but on hard concrete it'll bounce and keep going. Perhaps unfortunately this is a GM's call.

I know, but I completely don't know how to assess this bounces - how far etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.

Yeah, but eg. throwing grenade for someone's house (through a window, open door etc.), bunker, or something like that...

Fred Brackin 01-06-2020 10:40 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel (Post 2303349)
...and not just in GURPS it must be said. As for unreliable fuses, according to Ian Hogg Japanese grenade fuses captured during WW2 were so variable that some of them were effectively on a 0 second delay although other opinion thinks those may have been deliberately designed for booby trapping.

Did he include the part where the fuse had to be ignited by banging one end of the grenade on a hard surface? Or that sometimes the only hard surface available was the user's helmet?

johndallman 01-06-2020 11:17 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303345)
As for the timer, for those 20th century grenades given as having 4-5s fuses, that's being generous - they actually had more like a 4-7s delay in service.

The classic British Number 36M grenade was issued unfused. The fuses came in two varieties, 4 seconds and 7 seconds, and it was necessary to fuse the grenade before they were usable.
Quote:

By the way, in my experience grenades are very slow weapons in GURPS and are of little use unless one or both sides of a firefight are in solid cover and can't be forced out or shot in place. It takes a long time to get the grenade out, prep it, and throw it, and accurate placement is hard without exposure to fire.
They're extremely useful if you can sneak up on a fortified position unnoticed. Posting one into a pillbox opening works just fine: the fortification works in both directions.

Ulzgoroth 01-06-2020 11:37 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303330)
For the most part in GURPS, grenade timing is handwaved to a "it explodes immediately after being thrown/fired", because in real life most people do not act as fast or as precisely as GURPS Characters do.

This isn't true at all. GURPS grenades with time fuses (most of them) go off in accordance with those time fuses from when the grenade is armed.

The Colonel 01-06-2020 01:29 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin (Post 2303357)
Did he include the part where the fuse had to be ignited by banging one end of the grenade on a hard surface? Or that sometimes the only hard surface available was the user's helmet?

That's not specifically mentioned in the entry, but it does deserve a place on the long list of "good" design ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2303363)
The classic British Number 36M grenade was issued unfused. The fuses came in two varieties, 4 seconds and 7 seconds, and it was necessary to fuse the grenade before they were usable.

I think everyone ships grenades unfused - fusing grenades is a pretty standard part of prepping for an operation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman (Post 2303363)
They're extremely useful if you can sneak up on a fortified position unnoticed. Posting one into a pillbox opening works just fine: the fortification works in both directions.

They're also fun at night, where you can toss one almost silently at an enemy patrol - no muzzle flash or anything, just an explosion somewhere near them. If they are jumpy enough you can provoke jitter fire that way and sometimes they will shoot at each other for some time before someone gets a grip on them. Ideally you toss another grenade towards anyone shouting "cease fire".

evileeyore 01-06-2020 02:57 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303342)
So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses?

No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.

Unless their foe properly cooked it off, in which case that was 2-4 seconds in which their foe sat around not firing at them, just holding a live grenade counting off the seconds.

Quote:

I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?
If you do like most GMs and handwave it, the foe might get a Dive for Cover Dodge. If not he has a leisurely 2-4 seconds to walk away before it explodes.

It depends on the fuse length.

Quote:

And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?
It won't. It never takes more than 1 second for thrown or fired weapons to reach their targets, baring some optional rules for extreme long-range weapons.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2303365)
This isn't true at all. GURPS grenades with time fuses (most of them) go off in accordance with those time fuses from when the grenade is armed.

Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.

Ulzgoroth 01-06-2020 05:00 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303388)
Unless their foe properly cooked it off, in which case that was 2-4 seconds in which their foe sat around not firing at them, just holding a live grenade counting off the seconds.

Which isn't actually a lot of time, even in a firefight...

It's a lot of time if you're having a mutual massacre in the open at hand-to-hand distances. But that's a weird situation for combat even if games often seem to present it...
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303388)
Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.

Your detailed knowledge of the behavior of a majority of all people who have ever run a GURPS game on this planet is startling.

evileeyore 01-06-2020 06:07 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth (Post 2303411)
Which isn't actually a lot of time, even in a firefight...

It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.

Quote:

Your detailed knowledge...
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

Rupert 01-06-2020 06:18 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303388)
No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.

In real life people either don't notice the grenade in all the noise and excitement (possibly to replicate in GURPS with strict use of Perception checks, etc.), or can't move far enough because of obstacles and/or enemy fire (also easily replicable in GURPS).

Ulzgoroth 01-06-2020 08:49 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.

It's time for 1-2 quick aimed shots, if you're not delayed by incoming fire. Or for a normal person to swap magazines. Maybe enough time for a bound to a new position.

4 seconds is 4 turns, but turns are short and most things you do take more than one of them.

Tomsdad 01-07-2020 04:30 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
It's incredible amounts of time. Unless you're enforcing Lulls and Perception/Tactics rolls for OODA looping. Then yeah, 5 seconds can go by very fast.


Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).


I run the fuse time, yes sometimes some will react by moving away from the grenade, or by getting some cover between them and the grenade. but a few points:

1). you have to know the grenade is coming and where it landed, in the middle of a loud chaotic fire fight that is not easy let alone automatic

2). Doing so might put you in a worse situation, e.g if I chuck a grenade through the window of the house you are in and my mate is sitting with a wait covering the door with his assault rifle.

3). Just getting you to re-position or get out the way might be a win for me anyway! (it stops you from shooting at me for instance)


On PCs dealing with someone cooking a grenade off,

1). they have to know that it's happening (see 1. above)

2). you can ready and cook a grenade while you are out of sight or behind cover out of the PC's LOS, and then briefly appear long enough to throw the thing at them. I.e you don't run out in front of the PC and then spend 2-3 turns readying the grenade, starting the fuse and cooking the grenade in plain sight before throwing it at them



Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303426)
In real life people either don't notice the grenade in all the noise and excitement (possibly to replicate in GURPS with strict use of Perception checks, etc.), or can't move far enough because of obstacles and/or enemy fire (also easily replicable in GURPS).

yep

Tomsdad 01-07-2020 05:26 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
there's a more general point that been tangentially raised here with the question about how hard is it to kill PC's with a timed grenade.

Not all conflicts, even conflicts involving deadly force have to end in someone dying (or being seriously injured) in order for someone to win, or get a positive outcome.

Celjabba 01-07-2020 05:36 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303388)
No. Generally it's handwaved because, as I said, people in real life die to grenades, but no GURPS Character will die to a grenade when they have 2-4 seconds to move out of the blast zone before it goes off.

...

Yeah, that's RAW. But as I noted, by RAW GURPS Character have way more acuity and reaction time in combat than real life, so most GMs handwave the timing. If you don't, I'm surprised that any character suffers from a grenade blast.

Probably true with two spherical Characters dueling each other on a featureless plane.

In actual play, when grenades were used in my games, both by and against PC, that mostly wasn't a concern because

--the target(s) didn't notice the grenade (or only some of them did), either due to battle confusion or because someone used stealth and rolled a grenade toward them from behind.

--the target(s) couldn't move out of the blast zone in time or without putting themselves in higher danger.
Eithee because it would take them out of cover, or in one game, when a player lobbed a grenade through an open vehicle window...

--the purpose of the grenades was to make the target(s) move

--several grenade were thrown, covering a large area

And the few seconds delay, in cinematic games, may also allow fancy moves like a brute jumping on the grenade to protect the others players, or someone catching the grenade and throwing it back (and, in one memorable case, seeing it thrown back again ... )

RyanW 01-07-2020 12:47 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GWJ (Post 2303342)
So what, grenades with 2-3 sec fuses are flying faster than grenades with 4-5 fuses? :P Specifically, I'm thinking about situations like this:

I throw grenade. The grenade lands at somewhere near my foe (1st question - it will sit on the ground or bounce and land farther?). How much time my foe has to react somehow, before the grenade explode?

And like this: I throw grenade with 2-3 sec fuse on some great range. How to check if the grenade will reach his destination or just explode in the air?

Judging by the throwing distance formula, a person can throw a grenade somewhere around 6*sqrt(ST) yards per second (about 19 yds/sec for a ST 10 person). That's the horizontal speed needed to reach maximum throwing distance with an ideal 45 degree throw. It's a bit of a spherical cow, but a rough number is better than no number.

As far as bouncing, I'd just use the scatter rules. A failed attack roll might have been off target, or might have not taken into account the bounce. If you feel the conditions make for bouncing that is particularly hard to account for, just give an attack penalty.

johndallman 01-07-2020 01:43 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

I can only remember one occasion when a grenade was used by PCs who were known to be present by the enemy. We were clinging to the outside of a 40' container on a moving railway car, with the enemy inside it. At that point, a grenade was drawn, armed, cooked and thrown inside, which was pretty slow, but possible because there was no line of sight between any of the PCs and the opposition. That revealed to us that the sides of a container are not strong enough to stop grenade shrapnel, so we then resorted to firing blind with 5.56mm assault rifles through the walls, which subdued the opposition. Yes, this was an Action campaign.

All the other times we've used grenades were as traps, or by stealth.

I can't recall an occasion when I've seen grenades used against PCs, mostly because we try hard to happen to the opposition, rather than vice-versa.

Stand-up fights with high-tech firearms and grenades are completely unrealistic, and we never attempt them; if a new player came along who suffered from the delusion that melee should be able to compete with firearms a la fantasy games, we'd explain they were wrong, and let their characters die if they persisted.

Phoenix_Dragon 01-07-2020 03:48 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

In general, some combination of cooking off before initiating an ambush, the occasional use of Situational Awareness rules from Tactical Shooting (Grenades are, generously, SM -6, which can make them difficult to notice even if they qualify for "in plain sight," which I would generally only grant if they see the person throwing it or the area it's thrown into is particularly clear), requiring DX rolls to pick up a grenade that's still moving (Such as on the first turn after it was thrown) or in terrain that makes it awkward (Grenade landing in light brush), and the unknown fuse length of the grenade (Do you risk taking the 2-3 seconds to grab and throw it?). For poorly trained or inexperienced fighters I'd probably have seeing a grenade thrown near them trigger the Cool Under Fire rules.

And to top that off, there are also the occasions where getting the enemy to move (And abandon their cover) is the objective. If they stay put, they get blown up. If they do move, you've flushed them out of cover and can cut them down in the open, especially if you've got a buddy waiting for some juicy opportunity fire or if it forces them to expose themselves to suppression fire.

I generally don't see a lot of grenade use in my games, since we've had fairly few modern/future combat campaigns and the small-scale firefights we've had are rarely the kinds of situations for frequent grenade use, but they're still quite useful if used correctly.

Rupert 01-07-2020 05:13 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Celjabba (Post 2303497)
And the few seconds delay, in cinematic games, may also allow fancy moves like a brute jumping on the grenade to protect the others players, or someone catching the grenade and throwing it back (and, in one memorable case, seeing it thrown back again ... )

Last time someone tried to throw back a grenade in my game, it turned out to have a 1s fuse, so the would-be thrower lost their hand.

evileeyore 01-07-2020 07:29 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
...I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.

MrFix 01-07-2020 09:24 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Two things to note

1) IRL, grenades are lethal, but they're not a tool of total genocide. GURPS in that sense repeats that. Grenades are used for their shrapnel, to displace the enemy from cover and to stun them.

GURPS fully develops that in High Tech 181

- Grenade explosion in enclosed space deals x2 damage, x1.5 if there are windows and doors to 'blow out'.
- Grenades force HT roll if the target received ANY damage that bypassed DR. On failure, the victim is stunned AND suffers penalty to hearing equal to his Margin of Failure for 20-HT seconds. Critical failure is either Deafness or Hard of Hearing
- Grenades force HT roll if the target was looking at the explosion AND the damage was rolled against it (you dont need to actually suffer any damage). On failure, victim is stunned AND suffers vision penalty equal to margin of failure. Critical failure is blindness

The workflow for the grenade is such:

1. Pull the grenade out with a ready action. This can be skipped with Fast-Draw (Grenade).
2. Remove the ring with a ready action.
3. Release the spoon with a free action - fuse activates
4. Throw the grenade after waiting 2-3 rounds
5. It explodes on your turn, timer-rounds away from releasing of the spoon.

All grenades travel towards their target under 1 second, but GM may rule that they scatter as needed on further turns.


2) IRL and in GURPS, grenades are not used like in Call of Duty, they're a tactical tool that must be deployed smartly.

On attack, especially attack on a room full of hostiles, one of the PCs readies a grenade instead of his weapon, pulls the pin out (Ready action). 1-2 rounds before the attack, PC releases the spoon to activate the timer (Free action), and throws the grenade when the fuse is 1-2 seconds before explosion.

Grenade's explosion marks the start of the engagement vs disoriented, damaged and maybe blind/deaf/stunned enemy.

On defense, the grenade is just thrown to force the enemy to cancel the attack and seek shelter. Alternatively, if defensive side has barricades to shield behind, they use them to directly kill/stun enemy forces, counting the fuse down as appropriate. Remember, you can still fire your gun as the fuse counts down, with appropriate penalties for off-hand and/or one-handed use. You can hold the grenade in off-hand as it ticks down, and throw it!

3) Because of aforementioned concepts, using grenades is a High IQ play. I personally saw grenades used thrice in my GURPS career, one of them was me in the form of an NPC, and one in form of a PC.

1. An NPC threw an impact fuse grenade at the PC. PC hurried to catch it, and they did - blowing their hand off. That was the end of the engagement for the PC.

2. A group of soldiers were assaulting PC positions. 4-man team. While 3 of the team were putting rounds towards the PCs, the fourth spent a few turns preparing the grenade.

When his turn came, he leaned from behind his comrades and tossed the grenade under the feet of PCs.

The PCs hurried to pick the grenade up, and it promptly exploded in the hand of one of them, tearing it off, sending shrapnel into everyone.

PCs lost that encounter.

3. We were fighting a boss-type character in heavy armor. While the rest of my team were shooting at the lad with their guns, I kneeled behind cover and prepared a grenade, tossing it when fuse ran out.

His armor had high DR vs pi and cut, but not crushing damage, so explosion right under his feet ended the fight.

Make of that what you will.

Rupert 01-07-2020 11:26 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303607)
Remember, you can still fire your gun as the fuse counts down, with appropriate penalties for off-hand and/or one-handed use. You can hold the grenade in off-hand as it ticks down, and throw it!

That's a really bad idea. Firstly, if you're firing your weapon in any useful manner, you're exposed to incoming fire and if you get hit that grenade's not going anywhere, and as it's armed it's not your friend any more. Secondly, it's very easy to lose track of time while shooting, especially when caught up in a fire-fight, so you're making it very easy to lose track and have the grenade go off before you throw it, or while it's in the air.

'Cooking' grenades before throwing them is a risk already, without adding to it.
Quote:

His armor had high DR vs pi and cut, but not crushing damage, so explosion right under his feet ended the fight.
My experience is that getting a grenade in exactly the right spot is tricky, and if it's spotted people can almost always get a yard or two's distance, making the concussion damage far smaller than the base damage suggests it'd be. Grenades are great in TL5-7 games, where body armour is uncommon, but in TL8+ games their utility drops off rapidly against properly equipped soldiers (and at TL4- the grenades are junk, if they're available at all).

Phoenix_Dragon 01-08-2020 12:16 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303601)
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.

The stuff I posted generally only requires a single extra roll. Except it's not even an extra roll if you're already using the various realism rules from Tactical Shooting to make combat more realistic. And if you're going without the realistic rules, then yeah, you're going to get less realistic results.

Though I'll note that with the stuff I posted, you don't even need the realistic rules to potentially make running away from a grenade the wrong call.

MrFix is right; grenades are not some sure-fire "kill everything here" weapons. They are a tool, a single part of your tactical kit. They're going to be near useless in a theoretical infinite-flat-field combat, but they can be exceptionally effective tools if used right.

The only time I'd ever consider giving grenades an instant fuse is if the campaign is specifically aimed at having a cheesy action-movie feel, where throwing a grenade immediately produces a massive fireball that throws around every goon in the vicinity.

MrFix 01-08-2020 01:44 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
I want to pre-face my reply by saying that, contrary to popular belief, GURPS is not real life, and while certain IRL concepts apply to GURPS, not all of them do, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303610)
That's a really bad idea. Firstly, if you're firing your weapon in any useful manner, you're exposed to incoming fire and if you get hit that grenade's not going anywhere, and as it's armed it's not your friend any more. Secondly, it's very easy to lose track of time while shooting, especially when caught up in a fire-fight, so you're making it very easy to lose track and have the grenade go off before you throw it, or while it's in the air.

'Very easy to lose track of time' may be in the heat of battle, for a combatant himself, but player most often will have a clear head and will consciously count down/note the 4-5 round timer, waiting for his chance to toss, hence it is a non-issue.

Meanwhile, operating a handgun or your rifle one handed while the grenade is cooking off is safe as long as you play it safe. The issues you outline get worse tenfold if the enemy storms your position and you're just hanging out with a grenade and can't do anything. Putting at least a few bullets into them, or going for AoA double so you can both toss and shoot, is an option.

Bottom line, holding a gun does not impede your grenade throwing capabilities, so you can just hold onto it for insurance.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303610)
My experience is that getting a grenade in exactly the right spot is tricky, and if it's spotted people can almost always get a yard or two's distance, making the concussion damage far smaller than the base damage suggests it'd be. Grenades are great in TL5-7 games, where body armour is uncommon, but in TL8+ games their utility drops off rapidly against properly equipped soldiers (and at TL4- the grenades are junk, if they're available at all).

Throwing items in GURPS is easy, you get a +4 to hit a specific hex (DX if you dont have throwing), and they don't go anywhere from that hex. You can aim your throws, all out attack, whatever!

Next, the main killing agent of the grenade is the shrapnel. The example of me killing a guy with a grenade is just that - an example of using it to do direct damage.

I just ran a TL8 simulation vs another player, and grenade shrapnel won me the game by hitting the man's neck, leg and arm. Funny story, no body armor in High Tech protects neck.

And finally, it is a non-issue that the enemy tries to get away from the grenade. IN FACT, you want him to! Usually the enemy is behind cover, popping in and out to dish out punishment. Tossing a grenade behind his cover means he has to leave it to avoid damage, which buys you a few moments to maneuver, or exposes the enemy to counter-attack.

P.S.: Worth remembering that explosive damage is resolved against (Torso DR+WORST DR)/2. So it's effectively (2) as no TL8 gear can cover all hit locations with DR. M67 deals 9d crushing for average 31 damage. Assault Vest with plates only has 14 DR against that, so explosion under the feet is still lethal.

Max grenade roll is 54 damage, 18 if it's 1 yard away, so there's still a chance to do dirty to the guy you're blowing up.

Celjabba 01-08-2020 02:06 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303591)
Last time someone tried to throw back a grenade in my game, it turned out to have a 1s fuse, so the would-be thrower lost their hand.

I played for a while a superhero (well, super anyway ... hero is debatable) using grenades and teleportation... So lots of opportunities for grenades shenanigans. The grenade ping-pong happened in that campaign.

In non-super setting, I cannot remenber someone succeding at a grenade reverse thrown. Although a PC did try in a WW2 game, with unpleasant results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303601)
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.

You need to balance "realism vs complexity" in a game for tactical awareness, like every other options in Gurps.
But if you decide not to use situation awareness rolls, you shouldn't complain that the characters absolute awareness is unrealistic.
That said, hand-waving it is a fair middleground, as long as your player are ok with it.
A player state he is looking for trouble and/or have danger sense or another suitable advantage and/or there is good visibility and little ambient noise : he notice the grenade in time to react.
A player is AOA another target and/or concentrating on something and/or have a suitable disadvantage and/or visibility is poor and tehre is a lot of noise: he doesn't notice the grenade in time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303424)
Alright, it's the games I've been in and run. But if this is not the standard, I'd like to hear how other GMs kept PCs from just walking away from grenades (or deal with anyone they suspected were cooking one off).

In a WW2 game, grenades were mostly used against people in cover, both by and against players. If they walked away, they would lose that cover and get mowed down.

In an action/horror campaign, I used grenades against my players to clear a room before entry. They actually decided to stand their ground, only one reacting fast enough to dodge behind furniture.
Amazingly, they all survived with minor injuries and welcomed the opposite force with concentrated fire.

Players only used grenades twice in that campaign : once by stealth and from behind, the other with a player throwing a grenade inside a plane that was taking off. (yes, they stole the idea from a movie. can't remember which one.) And no, their opponents did not walk away ...

The games (not Gurps) that saw the most grenades uses were actually Star Wars games, way back. Thermal detonator were (ab)used a lot.

Tomsdad 01-08-2020 03:57 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303601)
Sounds like mostly "Make more rolls during combat thus slowing things down". Okay. Not what I prefer so I'll stick to hand waving it.

Not really more rolls, you are only keeping a track of when the grenade is and when it goes off

(although that is one more thing to keep track off in comparison to just saying it goes off at the end of the throw)

Don't get me wrong if a whole group of people start chucking grenades about then maybe, but how often does that happen.


FWIW I tend to track temporary stuff like that by marking on acetate sheets* that I can overlay the combat map as and when I need to.


*I can do several sheets for different things that are in evidence at different times (yeah sorry I'm that kind of GM)

MrFix 01-08-2020 04:43 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast. You roll dice once, but you need to figure out the damage for each person separately using formula of Damage/(3*<range from target to explosion in yards)

Even for 5 people thats' 5 separate calculations you have to do.

If then the explosion has shrapnel, you need to decide how many people are in the blast, roll 3d6 against 15 modified by range and stance for each person, calculate how many pellets each person is hit by, calculate hit locations of these pellets etc...

for 5 people, hit by 3 shrapnels, it's 4 3d6 rolls per person and 3 damage rolls per person for total of 35 rolls just to see if that group of people you grenaded dies.

Rupert 01-08-2020 04:58 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303616)
Meanwhile, operating a handgun or your rifle one handed while the grenade is cooking off is safe as long as you play it safe. The issues you outline get worse tenfold if the enemy storms your position and you're just hanging out with a grenade and can't do anything. Putting at least a few bullets into them, or going for AoA double so you can both toss and shoot, is an option.

For character lacking Ambidextrous, etc., this is a -4 to hit with one or the other. Basically, you're exposing yourself for nothing unless an exceptional character.
Quote:

Throwing items in GURPS is easy, you get a +4 to hit a specific hex (DX if you dont have throwing), and they don't go anywhere from that hex. You can aim your throws, all out attack, whatever!
If the ground is right, then sure, the grenade won't roll or bounce. However a lot of ground isn't like that, and it's entirely fair for the GM to require the Throw roll to be at a penalty to account for this, and to have misses go further than you'd like. As for aiming your throw, you'd better hope nobody is in a position to shoot you while you just stand out there.

Quote:

Next, the main killing agent of the grenade is the shrapnel. The example of me killing a guy with a grenade is just that - an example of using it to do direct damage.
That depends hugely on TL - vs people in even moderate Ultra-Tech armour the shrapnel is useless.
Quote:

I just ran a TL8 simulation vs another player, and grenade shrapnel won me the game by hitting the man's neck, leg and arm. Funny story, no body armor in High Tech protects neck.
Not quite true - the Stock (HU70) does. But yes, this is a problem with the listed armour sets, and it's not actually true of all modern armour, so if the GM is using armour taken from RL, some will have neck protection. Most modern military issue armour lacks face protection, however.
Quote:

And finally, it is a non-issue that the enemy tries to get away from the grenade. IN FACT, you want him to! Usually the enemy is behind cover, popping in and out to dish out punishment. Tossing a grenade behind his cover means he has to leave it to avoid damage, which buys you a few moments to maneuver, or exposes the enemy to counter-attack.
Most cover is more than a yard wide, so unless your opponent has made the dubious decision to hide behind a standing tree, he's got room to move. And yes, it buys you a moment or two, but it also cost you quite a few moments. Thus the grenade is a tool for certain specific circumstances.
Quote:

P.S.: Worth remembering that explosive damage is resolved against (Torso DR+WORST DR)/2. So it's effectively (2) as no TL8 gear can cover all hit locations with DR. M67 deals 9d crushing for average 31 damage. Assault Vest with plates only has 14 DR against that, so explosion under the feet is still lethal.
Note that vs a standing opponent who sees it, landing the grenade at thier feet in terrain perfect for grenade placement as you assume also means they can easily kick it away, and it only need move a couple of yards and the concussion is next to nothing.

As I said, at HT tech levels, they're useful tools, but at higher TLs they tend to fall behind armour quite badly.

Rupert 01-08-2020 05:00 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Celjabba (Post 2303618)
The games (not Gurps) that saw the most grenades uses were actually Star Wars games, way back. Thermal detonator were (ab)used a lot.

I saw a lot in a Space Opera game, and a lot in a Spacemaster game. In the former they proved very good at dropping drives of cannon fodder, and in the latter a good way for characters with marginal combat skills to hurt and stun bad guys.

Rupert 01-08-2020 05:03 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303632)
Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast. You roll dice once, but you need to figure out the damage for each person separately using formula of Damage/(3*<range from target to explosion in yards)

B414 says you roll damage for each individual in the blast, optionally only rolling once for groups of NPCs.

Quote:

for 5 people, hit by 3 shrapnels, it's 4 3d6 rolls per person and 3 damage rolls per person for total of 35 rolls just to see if that group of people you grenaded dies.
Most grenades do not get that many hits, in my experience. But yes, grenades, like accurate automatic fire can make for a lot of rolling.

evileeyore 01-08-2020 05:15 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 2303629)
Not really more rolls, you are only keeping a track of when the grenade is and when it goes off.

The extra rolls are for OODA loop. What Tactical Shooting calls Situational Awareness.

When my group first encountered this 'problem' we solved via extra Perception rolls... but if you're rolling to recognize grenades, why aren't you rolling for everything else? So now, suddenly everyone is making a Perception roll every turn, usually at penalty, and combats started to turn grindy and slow.

So I solved it by hand waving grenade timing. Pretty much solved the problem for almost everyone.




Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303632)
Grenades and by extension explosives do add a lot more rolls. Most of my games grind to a halt when things explode.

You need to calculate SEPARATE damage for each person in the blast.

I simplify that by using different coloured dice. Yes, it's not as fast as just counting the damage up once and moving on, but it's still one roll with an accumulated count as you count out from blast center.

Ultraviolet 01-08-2020 06:59 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Over my years of playign GURPS I've seen a little grenade use but nothing al all when compared to gunfire.

In SPECOPS we used them sparingly at first, perhaps due to the issues described about inaccuracy and inefficiency.
One mission however, inside a large building complex, one of the SEALs threw an unarmed smoke grenade into a room with hostiles, and when they ran out we shot 'em. He picked up the grenade and used it again during the same mission.
In later years, when we had gone dark and played ex-specops mercenaries instead, another character of mine used grenades generously when storming rooms. Mostly is was of no use if the rooms were empty of hostiles. On one mission, to retrieve or sabotage some stolen missile guidance chips the GM rules that my grenade into the warehouse ruined the chips, and we only got reduced pay for only achieving the secondary objective.

In Cliffhangers we had once just escaped from being bound up in a shack on a plantation on Java. Then enemy noticed this and threw a grenade inside. Everybody but one jumped out windows, but the last character picked up the grenade and tossed it outside. Then we all leapt to our feet and jumped inside again, only to exit once more after it went off.
Another time a character chasing a civilian possessed by a spirit-alien or whatever tossed a grenade ahead of them, but misjudged the speed vs. fuse time so it exploded when he was close to it, not the possessed guy. He did that twice.

evileeyore 01-08-2020 02:07 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet (Post 2303650)
Then enemy noticed this and threw a grenade inside. Everybody but one jumped out windows, but the last character picked up the grenade and tossed it outside. Then we all leapt to our feet and jumped inside again, only to exit once more after it went off.

And that right there is the problem with GURPS time to turn resolution and PC acuity and reaction speed, which my handwaving pretty well solves for grenade purposes.

MrFix 01-08-2020 06:51 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
The issue at hand here is that the GM was too generous with actions.

Usually to pick up grenade and throw it you need to:

1. Change Posture (Kneeling)
2. Ready maneuver to pick the grenade up
3. Throw maneuver to throw it

As you can see, if the grenade was cooked for at least 1 second, which it usually is since Ready Maneuver is taken to activate it and it is tossed on second turn, the grenade would explode and kill the man picking it up.

And escaping from a shack is usually a move maneuver to approach the window and another to jump through. So even if he threw the grenade and it didnt explode, his friends would need at least 1 more maneuver to get back inside of the shack.

Rupert 01-08-2020 10:54 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303743)
As you can see, if the grenade was cooked for at least 1 second, which it usually is since Ready Maneuver is taken to activate it and it is tossed on second turn, the grenade would explode and kill the man picking it up.

That is correct for a grenade like a 'potato masher' that requires you trigger the timer separately. However, for Mills Bombs, 'Pineapple' grenades, M67 grenades and all similar ones this is not the case - the spoon flies off and the timer is started when you release the grenade, with no separate action being required.

Get grenade out, pull pin (can be done as part of the throw), throw.

MrFix 01-08-2020 11:25 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303767)
That is correct for a grenade like a 'potato masher' that requires you trigger the timer separately. However, for Mills Bombs, 'Pineapple' grenades, M67 grenades and all similar ones this is not the case - the spoon flies off and the timer is started when you release the grenade, with no separate action being required.

Get grenade out, pull pin (can be done as part of the throw), throw.

You can release the spoon without throwing the grenade, that's how 'cooking' it works. Pulling the pin is never done as part of the throw, it's a separate ready action as per HT192.

Quote:

TL5 Fuse Grenade: [1] Takes a Ready maneuver to light the fuse or five
Ready maneuvers if you must insert the fuse first! Malf. is 14.
TL6 Potato Masher:[2] Takes two Ready maneuvers to screw off the cap and
pull the cord.
TL6+ Ring and Spoon:[3] Takes a Ready maneuver to pull the pin or string.

Ultraviolet 01-08-2020 11:55 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303702)
And that right there is the problem with GURPS time to turn resolution and PC acuity and reaction speed, which my handwaving pretty well solves for grenade purposes.

You are right about it being too easy. It is a problem - or would have if it wasn't in a slightly cinematic Cliffhangers campaign. It was only a bit of fun, and only happened once...in a campaign started in 1994.

Tomsdad 01-09-2020 01:07 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303642)
The extra rolls are for OODA loop. What Tactical Shooting calls Situational Awareness.

When my group first encountered this 'problem' we solved via extra Perception rolls... but if you're rolling to recognize grenades, why aren't you rolling for everything else? So now, suddenly everyone is making a Perception roll every turn, usually at penalty, and combats started to turn grindy and slow.

So I solved it by hand waving grenade timing. Pretty much solved the problem for almost everyone.
...

Thing is as you say it's a broader question of how you run combat (and what characters/players know and can react to) that's not limited to Grenades, so removing the fuze timing on Grenades might remove one area where it manifests it doesn't end the question.


And that works both ways, if you don't like people automatically jumping away from grenades or knowing exactly where they land and in the middle of combat being able to work out to the yard and second that they have enough time to reach them pick them up and throw them back. Then that's fine, but again it's a question of how you run combat not that grenades don't go bang as soon as they reach their target or miss by the system determined scatter.

Don't get me wrong if it works for you than that is all that matters, and frankly dealing with specific symptoms you don't like rather than causes is perfectly valid because the goal here is a pleasing game and not all symptoms are equal (and some cures are worse than the actual symptoms you are actually worried about).

Rupert 01-09-2020 06:59 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303771)
You can release the spoon without throwing the grenade, that's how 'cooking' it works. Pulling the pin is never done as part of the throw, it's a separate ready action as per HT192.

Ever used a grenade? While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal. The rules can say what they like, on this they are wrong unless you want to also say that when you throw a ball you must spend a turn 'readying' it even if it's already in hand.

As for 'cooking off' grenades, I've never seen it done in-game, though it sometimes makes sense (i.e. when you have a 4-5s fuse). In RL we were instructed quite strongly not to do it, because the nominal 4s fuse could go in as little as 3s (and up to 7s was also quite normal). The fuses in grenades are made by a low bidder, in general, and it shows.

Personally, aside from their use in clearing pillboxes and the like, grenades are more of a pain in the a** than an asset, IMO (smoke grenades aside - they won't kill you if they go off in your webbing for some reason). That said, for room-clearing and such where they are useful they are really useful, invaluable even.

Varyon 01-09-2020 09:45 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303816)
While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal.

I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.

MrFix 01-09-2020 02:37 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303816)
Ever used a grenade? While you can, and if not in a hurry probably will remove the pin as a separate action, pulling it as part of the throwing action is quite possible and normal. The rules can say what they like, on this they are wrong ... etc etc etc

Quote:

In RL we were instructed quite strongly .. etc etc etc
Exactly all of the things you said do not apply in GURPS beyond some kind of GM fiat ruling.

We're playing GURPS here, again, not real life, so giving real life advice for a GURPS game is simply being misleading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2303840)
I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.

GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.

To draw a grenade into two-handed stance, it's reasonable to require such perk, otherwise it's a ready action to change grip from one to two-handed. It's assumed you already do that as part of Ready maneuver to prime the grenade.

GM may rule to include it as a perk, "Quick Prime", which allows you to pull the pin as part of a fast-draw (grenade). On failure, grenade is not primed AND you spend a ready action drawing it. On critical failure, the grenade is primed AND you drop it under your feet.

Varyon 01-09-2020 03:27 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303882)
Exactly all of the things you said do not apply in GURPS beyond some kind of GM fiat ruling.

We're playing GURPS here, again, not real life, so giving real life advice for a GURPS game is simply being misleading.

While GURPS is not a reality simulator, it is strongly informed by reality. Explaining how something is done in real life is often something that can be readily imported into GURPS, and will improve verisimilitude when you do so. Sure, maybe it's not the way the things work currently in GURPS, but if it improves the experience without adding much complication, there's very little reason to not do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303882)
GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.

Looking at that entry (TS11), there's an implication that you can Fast-Draw (at least) immediately into a two-handed grip without the Perk, but at -2 to the attempt. Something similar for grenades would be appropriate, I think. I'll note that, from Rupert's post (and considering the character probably doesn't want to risk blowing himself up much), such a draw doesn't mean you draw the grenade and pull the pin at the same time; rather, you draw the grenade and grab the pin at the same time, pulling it (as a free action) once you're ready for the timer to start (often just before throwing, although if you want to risk cooking it off you may indeed want to pull it as soon as it's ready). You could still have a Critical Failure result in dropping a primed grenade, but I'd have the Perk avoid this (as the Perk is more like Grip Mastery, which lets you draw one-handed then put your other hand in position; with the Perk, a Critical Failure is the same for a normal Critical Failure for Fast-Drawing a grenade (that is, you just drop it).

evileeyore 01-09-2020 03:56 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 2303776)
Thing is as you say it's a broader question of how you run combat (and what characters/players know and can react to) that's not limited to Grenades, so removing the fuze timing on Grenades might remove one area where it manifests it doesn't end the question.

In my case, it did end the question.

Or rather, the pebble drop into the pond that was solving grenades in my game, grew into the Chicxulub event of how I run GURPS (in other words that one change ended up heralding sweeping changes in almost every aspect of how I run, a switch from very gritty, detail oriented rules into very loose high action cinematics).

Rupert 01-09-2020 04:51 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2303840)
I think the rules assume a one-handed draw of the grenade, in which case needing to reach over, grab the pin/string, and pull it (while depressing the lever with the hand holding it) seems to be appropriate as a Ready. If you are doing something like a two-handed draw, with one hand holding the grenade and the other already on the pin, pulling the pin should probably be a free action. The former is the way you typically see grenades drawn in media, but it sounds like the latter is more the way soldiers are actually trained to draw and use them. I certainly see no problem with allowing characters to shave an extra second of Ready off by doing a two-handed draw (this might require the character to have some points in Soldier or similar, but that's optional); note this can allow for a character to draw, arm, and throw the grenade in a single second with Fast-Draw (matching the way grenades are used in modern First Person Shooter games), although doing so with a weapon in one hand should probably penalize the Fast-Draw roll.

You need yo use both hands to remove the pin or unscrew the cap and pull it anyway. Taking the grenade out of your webbing (or boot, or whatever) can generally be done one-handed without difficulty.

Arming the grenade one-handed should not be the default, and should take at least that extra second, plus unreadying whatever you had in the off-hand. This, by the way, is the big drawback of a grenade in terms of the time it takes. You have to put down or holster your gun, arm the grenade, and then either throw the grenade and then re-ready the gun, or re-ready the gun (in your off-hand, and really only practical with a pistol) or pick it up, and then throw the grenade. It gets messy with a rifle, and most people playing with grenades will have a rifle.

The thing is, once that pin is out, Mr. Grenade is nobody's friend, even if the igniter has not been triggered yet. Once it has, and it's cooking off, it's actively your enemy and keeping it around is a high risk. The shorter the fuse, the higher the risk, obviously.

Rupert 01-09-2020 05:02 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303882)
GURPS assumes one-handed draw for all one-handed items, that's why pistols are drawn into one-handed stance and TS pistol styles give the ability to buy grip mastery right away - so you can actually draw into a two-handed stance.

Some of TS's rulling on such things are a bit odd. That's like saying that you must take two turns to ready a two-handed grip on a weapon such as a staff or a spear if you pick it up with one hand initially. A penalty to fast-draw to draw into a two-handed grip on a pistol? Sure, that makes sense, but to say it takes two seconds to draw into a two-handed grip is not reasonable, IMO.
Quote:

GM may rule to include it as a perk, "Quick Prime", which allows you to pull the pin as part of a fast-draw (grenade). On failure, grenade is not primed AND you spend a ready action drawing it. On critical failure, the grenade is primed AND you drop it under your feet.
Which is massively worse than other Fast-Draw critical failures, and doesn't really pass the sniff test, given that the other results are 'pin out, ready to go' and 'ready, but pin in', but there's no simple 'you dropped it'. The pins aren't that easy to remove, and on at least modern grenades there's another clip that you remove as you throw them that would stop this.

Ulzgoroth 01-09-2020 11:49 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2303743)
The issue at hand here is that the GM was too generous with actions.

Usually to pick up grenade and throw it you need to:

1. Change Posture (Kneeling)
2. Ready maneuver to pick the grenade up
3. Throw maneuver to throw it

Campaigns says this (p411), but it is clearly mistaken about the need for that first turn.

Putting aside that it's not unlikely that somebody having a grenade thrown at them is already in a low posture that lets them easily reach the ground, you don't need to use Change Posture to kneel from a standing position. You can do that as a step (stated on both p364 and 368). So you can use the step included in your Ready maneuver to kneel.

Personally I'd also argue that you can reach things on the ground from a crouch, which you can enter as a free action at the start of your turn from standing (p364 and 368).

evileeyore 01-10-2020 07:58 AM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert (Post 2303900)
You have to put down or holster your gun, arm the grenade, and then either throw the grenade and then re-ready the gun, or re-ready the gun (in your off-hand, and really only practical with a pistol) or pick it up, and then throw the grenade.

Only if you can't draw and throw the grenade with your off-hand. Which admittedly, most character will not be able to do.

Kale 01-11-2020 04:22 PM

Re: [HT] Grenades fuse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by evileeyore (Post 2303953)
Only if you can't draw and throw the grenade with your off-hand. Which admittedly, most character will not be able to do.

Well worth an off-hand throwing perk if a character plans to do that regularly.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.