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-   -   Verification re: Move and Attack (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=173546)

Donny Brook 06-05-2021 11:35 AM

Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Consulting the combat modifiers at the end of Basic Set, is says a Move and Attack in melee has a -4 penalty and a skill cap of 9. For ranged attacks it says a penalty of -2 or weapon bulk, whichever is worse and it does not mention the skill cap. So, is there no skill cap for ranged weapon Move and Attack or is it supposed to be implied? I've been playing it with no cap, but always wondered about that.

MrFix 06-05-2021 12:35 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
ranged move and attack has no cap.

Donny Brook 06-05-2021 03:30 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Good to have it confirmed, thanks.
It's odd though, why it's so much easier to use a pistol on the run vs. a knife.

MrFix 06-05-2021 03:40 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2382854)
Good to have it confirmed, thanks.
It's odd though, why it's so much easier to use a pistol on the run vs. a knife.

Pistol is directed, so the only obstacle is it jumping around - penalty to hit.
Knife is swung or thrust, you need to both aim it and deliver a technically correct strike. It's the question of more stuff to do.

Most videos that might be produced to portray 'how it is IRL' involve a man closing in via Move, and then using All Out Attack to both approach the target and then strike at a bonus.

Move & Attack portrays strike on the run, or run-by strike, which is harder to do than simply stopping the run when you're in range and then thrusting/swinging.

Plane 06-06-2021 03:53 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFix (Post 2382856)
Most videos that might be produced to portray 'how it is IRL' involve a man closing in via Move, and then using All Out Attack to both approach the target and then strike at a bonus.

Move & Attack portrays strike on the run, or run-by strike, which is harder to do than simply stopping the run when you're in range and then thrusting/swinging.

Also to cover "I'm able to attack while running full speed" Martial Arts added that All-Out Attack can use full move if you attack using a slam (MA98 Slams as All-Out Attacks)

It's also possible to deliver a slam using a long weapon held horizontally across your body (MA112 Slams with Long Weapons) which gives a bonus to your crushing damage as well as (similar to a Shield Rush) lets the weapon take the damage instead of you.

Move and Attack gives the option of substituing slam/collision damage for your thrust if it is better (MA107, no special heading) which sort of muddles the water of "I'm stopping to thrust" though.

Despite substituting slam damage I don't know that it would count as a slam for other purposes such as knocking people down, not taking a -4 to hit / skill cap 9 on a Move and Attack (slams don't suffer those) probably because you're trying to thrust with a narrow weapon tip as opposed to "throwing my entire torso at someone" or whatever a slam is meant to be (it never seems to specify point of contact, which is a big deal for body armor)

Even though RAW this substitution rule probably only applies to Move and Attack, I'd be for allowing it as a generic rule. It's generally not going to be useful for your standard attack (or even committed attack) since 1-2 steps don't give you much velocity (same reason why you wouldn't tend to deliver a slam using those maneuvers)

It'd mostly just be useful for All-Out Attack since you get 50% move.

In the situation of substituting slam damage for a thrusting weapon, I wonder if maybe 100% move should be allowed on an All-Out Attack?

To balance it out maybe a -4 to hit should be applied to All-Out Attacks which do that, as you would suffer on a Move and Attack. I'm basically just looking for the full sprinting speed of AOA slams, not the accuracy slams enjoy in M+A.

Slams basically get a free "+4 to hit" during a Move and Attack (to ignore the usual -4 penalty) which isn't enjoyed in other contexts such as a Move and Attack.

This makes me wonder if maybe we should just always give +4 to hit with slams (you're running into something, it's very instincitve) rather than special treatment with only M+A

Varyon 06-06-2021 06:30 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2382854)
Good to have it confirmed, thanks.
It's odd though, why it's so much easier to use a pistol on the run vs. a knife.

A bit of an oddity here is that if you run at a foe and swing a hatchet, it's a wild swing (-4 to hit, cap of 9), while if you run at a foe, swing the same hatchet, and let go somewhere midswing, it's only a -2 and no cap (albeit a different skill). I'd be inclined to say thrusts and thr-based throwing weapons are less penalized (worse of -2 and Bulk*, no cap), while swings and sw-based throwing weapons suffer the full penalty (which should be the worse of -4 and Bulk*, cap of 9).

*For weapons that can't be thrown and thus lack a Bulk entry, approximated it based on the closest weapon. A Spear is -6; a Long Spear is comparable but longer, so -7; a Halberd is of comparable length to a Long Spear, but has more fiddly bits, so -8. Of course, given how spears were often thrown after a run-up, I'm not certain that Bulk value is entirely appropriate as a penalty here (then again, those were probably All Out Attacks, which sidestep the Bulk issue entirely).

khorboth 06-06-2021 06:44 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Donny Brook (Post 2382854)
Good to have it confirmed, thanks.
It's odd though, why it's so much easier to use a pistol on the run vs. a knife.

The way I generally think of this is that for a ranged attack, you can fire at any time during the second. For the melee attack, you are very limited in your time-on-target.

Keep in mind that for most kinds of attacks, you can still take a step. And you can generally spend a fatigue for an extra step or use an aggressive attack for half-move. In most cases, this gives you enough movement to cover a walking pace. It's only when running around that you're swinging wildly.

Plane 06-06-2021 06:57 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon (Post 2382947)
I'd be inclined to say thrusts and thr-based throwing weapons are less penalized (worse of -2 and Bulk*, no cap), while swings and sw-based throwing weapons suffer the full penalty (which should be the worse of -4 and Bulk*, cap of 9).

Maybe instead of a "worse of" we can just do a fixed penalty in addition to bulk?

I could also see working Reach into it somehow... I think it's probably easier (while running) to stab someone 1 yard away with a Reach 1 spear than to stab someone 4 yards away with a Reach 4 spear for example.

The deviations on the point of your weapon which happen from the increased body movement are basically going to be amplified, slipping an inch off target for a reach 1 weapon is probably slipping 4 inches off target for a reach 4 weapon.

Do we say guns use the same policy as thrust weapons since they are direct line of fire rather than spinning?

When it comes to arrows, even though they used thrust it's the thrust of the weapon rather than directly applied thrust so I could see it work more like a gun, if we gave guns lesser penalties than thrust weapons.

Donny Brook 06-06-2021 09:36 PM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Videos of real gun fights where people are dashing about shooting seem to have a lot of misses, far more than seem to be the case in recreation melees or fencing matches.

Plane 06-07-2021 08:43 AM

Re: Verification re: Move and Attack
 
Maybe that's because of the speed/range penalties on guns combined with the lack of using Aim to get an Acc bonus?


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