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-   -   Can you Parry a Bear? (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=133614)

DouglasCole 05-28-2017 09:58 PM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaps (Post 1882879)
Simple situation:

You are facing a grizzly bear. It takes a swipe at you with its massive claws. If you character is armed with a typical longsword, can he parry this attack?

I will note that The Broken Blade in Pyr 3/87 was written to deal with this question.

Tomsdad 05-31-2017 02:17 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole (Post 2101829)
I will note that The Broken Blade in Pyr 3/87 was written to deal with this question.

And has the "making skill count" allows you trade off penalties to increase your breakage threshold

So a Grizzly Bear with ST19, Blunt claws and Brawling +3

is going to be doing 2d-1 +2 + 2 = 2d+3 (or I guess 3d) on a strike

A long sword is MinST11 for a Defence Breakage Threshold of 11

so yeah it's touch and go when parrying

dds_ks 06-28-2017 07:33 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaps (Post 1882879)
Simple situation:

You are facing a grizzly bear. It takes a swipe at you with its massive claws. If you character is armed with a typical longsword, can he parry this attack?

This is not really an answer to your question, but I once had a mage with a special "anti predator move":

I cast a Flame Jet.
I used "all out-defense (double)".

My first defense was a parry with the flame jet.
Yes, you're right: A jet never allows a parry, it's in the description. But.
The idea was to discourage the predator (in fact, it happened to be a bear):
I never attacked, but I always tried to keep the fire between me and the bear.
So if the bear attacked - and only then -, I made a parry with the flame jet just to decide whether I injure the bear. But whatever the parry was, it of course did not protect me from the bear's attack.

The second defense of course was a dodge, and that decided whether I was hit.


Now back to your question: Some mentioned the rules for breaking weapons. I agree that there are rules for parrying unarmed attacks of very strong enemies. But this is how general rules apply for general situations. However, there is a difference whether the bear strikes at me or charges at me, I'd say.
If a bear charges, I would not really expect to stop him with a sword! Even if I hit him very hard, even if I kill him that way, the corpse of the bear still would have to much momentum to be stopped. So I would expect that in case of a charge I still might take full damage.

Imion 06-29-2017 06:32 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

So this creates the weird situation where if you do a shield bash it is a 25 pound attack, if you shield rush it is only an 8 pound attack.
With a Shield Bash you only have to accelerate the mass of the shield. With a Shield Rush you have to accelerate the mass of yourself as well as the mass of everything you are carrying. On a surface that has considerable friction. So naturally, the force of impact of the latter is lesser than that of the former.

Quote:

A 130 pound attack for a ST 8 person throwing their whole weight into a slam/pounce/shield rush seems right.
You are not dropping on your opponent vertically from a considerable height. you are rushing him horizontally while having contact with the ground.


ADDENDUM: One might additionally argue that the area of impact of a Shield Bash is smaller than the area of impact of a Shield Rush, since it might be doubtful that you connect with the whole broad side of the shield when bashing.

Tomsdad 06-29-2017 07:34 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Imion (Post 2107280)
With a Shield Bash you only have to accelerate the mass of the shield. With a Shield Rush you have to accelerate the mass of yourself as well as the mass of everything you are carrying. On a surface that has considerable friction. So naturally, the force of impact of the latter is lesser than that of the former.

I think that's going to depend on weather or not you can shield bash at a significantly different velocity than you can shield rush at. Not forgetting that the mass of the latter is going to be significantly more than the former

So I guess the question is how fast do you think you can shield bash with a 25lb shield?



Quote:

Originally Posted by Imion (Post 2107280)
ADDENDUM: One might additionally argue that the area of impact of a Shield Bash is smaller than the area of impact of a Shield Rush, since it might be doubtful that you connect with the whole broad side of the shield when bashing.

Maybe but i think you might have happen in shield rushes as well.

Either way while that effect would act to concentrate the force on a smaller point of impact I'm not sure that it will matter much for the momentum of the attack and I think it's more that you trying parry against.

And thinking about it if you parrying by redirecting the point of impact, that's easier to do against small concentrated point of impact than a larger more diffuse one

Imion 06-29-2017 08:22 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad (Post 2107288)
Either way while that effect would act to concentrate the force on a smaller point of impact I'm not sure that it will matter much for the momentum of the attack and I think it's more that you trying parry against.

And thinking about it if you parrying by redirecting the point of impact, that's easier to do against small concentrated point of impact than a larger more diffuse one

AFAIK the question was about the 'effective weight' of an attack for the purposes of parrying. Specifically when and if you have to roll against breakage.

My reasoning is thus:

With a concentrated force it is easier to break the parrying weapon than with a force spread out over a relatively large area. That would validate the rule that the effective weight of a shield bash, when it comes to the chance of weapon breakage due to parrying, is higher than that of a Shield Rush.

That you have successfully parried the attack is not quite the point of discussion here.


Oh and BTW:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellboy (Post 2107244)
(...)
Pyramid 77 only seems to help for those with ST higher than 10.
(...)

You did notice the theme of that article, Combat Writ Large, didn't you?

Imion 06-29-2017 09:04 AM

Re: Can you Parry a Bear?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellboy (Post 2107244)
(...)
This might seem extreme but....what if we count slams as.weighing 10 x basic instead of 0.5? A 130 pound attack for a ST 8 person throwing their whole weight into a slam/pounce/shield rush seems right.

This would mean that practically every weapon would have to roll against breakage when parrying a weak man that comes rushing. I'd call that shenanigans.


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