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Old 09-26-2012, 11:54 PM   #31
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you're concerned about accuracy, you should almost never be using suppressive fire. That's not what it's for. Having very little chance to hit doesn't reduce the effectiveness as a psychological measure. (Though I'd note that you might be able to attempt Walking The Burst.)
Aiming to hit “those **** rocks there on that **** ridge line” is still aiming and still requires accuracy. If you aren't trying to hit a fairly specific area, you aren't doing what GURPS calls Suppressive Fire. Beyond that, I will leave the thread to the machine-gunners!
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Old 09-26-2012, 11:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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Two radios, AND the goddamn A-Bag for the 240. Do I have a something tattooed on my forehead that says "pack mule"?
Never fell out, or threatened to, I imagine. What I always hated was all the gear that I had I to sign for.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Aiming to hit “those **** rocks there on that **** ridge line” is still aiming and still requires accuracy. If you aren't trying to hit a fairly specific area, you aren't doing what GURPS calls Suppressive Fire. Beyond that, I will leave the thread to the machine-gunners!
If you want to hit the rocks, yes, aiming may be necessary.

If you want to direct suppressive fire to the location of those rocks, no, not at all. You might not even get to roll the dice at all. You only roll for suppressive fire to see whether it hits a person (or other object of interest) passing within the beaten zone.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you want to hit the rocks, yes, aiming may be necessary.

If you want to direct suppressive fire to the location of those rocks, no, not at all. You might not even get to roll the dice at all. You only roll for suppressive fire to see whether it hits a person (or other object of interest) passing within the beaten zone.
That is a bit unrealistic, though. It's not as if declaring that one intends to suppress a specific hex 500 yds away, without taking even a second to sight in that direction before starting to blaze away, automatically allows one to place the beaten zone just there 100% of the time.

I require a roll to hit the area, with the appropriate bonus (minimum +4), before I assess the effects. A miss uses the scatter rules, which could lead to a beaten zone located slightly (or vastly) off target.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:53 AM   #35
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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I require a roll to hit the area, with the appropriate bonus (minimum +4), before I assess the effects. A miss uses the scatter rules, which could lead to a beaten zone located slightly (or vastly) off target.
I would agree that a roll is required, not sure about the +4 bonus (seems high), and I would tie the penalty to the Fright Check to the margin of success - bullets passing inches from your face is a lot scarier than bullets a block away!

I think that GURPS, focused as it is on "exceptional" individuals, does a relatively poor job of capturing the ordinary. Realistically, suppressing fire is so effective that it is mostly limited by the need to conserve ammunition - absent that (or special tactical circumstances), why not hose down an area constantly? Suppressing fire essentially transforms every peek around cover into a slightly less dangerous version of charging a machinegun nest! To capture this, I would give some level of Cowardice and/or Fearfulness for nearly all civilians and most ordinary soldiers.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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I would agree that a roll is required, not sure about the +4 bonus (seems high),
Targeting a hex, as opposed to a human-shaped target standing in it, is canonically a +4 bonus.

It's a bit odd, in that the SM of a hex ought to be +2 and not +4, but them's the rules. Maybe it would be more realistic to use an SM-based bonus, though, but then it's just not that much easier to lay a beaten zone over an area than it is to hit an individual target within it.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you want to hit the rocks, yes, aiming may be necessary.

If you want to direct suppressive fire to the location of those rocks, no, not at all. You might not even get to roll the dice at all. You only roll for suppressive fire to see whether it hits a person (or other object of interest) passing within the beaten zone.
And that roll takes an aim bonus, and you will normally want to aim to have a decent chance of hitting and avoiding over-heating your weapon. At 100 yards, for example, the range penalty is -10 so a skill-12 gunner with RoF 8 (+1) will be at skill 3 unless he aims for a turn at which point it rises to skill 7. The actual machine-gunners here can comment on whether this is realistic, but the GURPS rules are clear and simple. I don't understand how who rolls the dice is relevant to anything.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:23 AM   #38
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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And that roll takes an aim bonus, and you will normally want to aim to have a decent chance of hitting and avoiding over-heating your weapon. At 100 yards, for example, the range penalty is -10 so a skill-12 gunner with RoF 8 (+1) will be at skill 3 unless he aims for a turn at which point it rises to skill 7. The actual machine-gunners here can comment on whether this is realistic, but the GURPS rules are clear and simple. I don't understand how who rolls the dice is relevant to anything.
Who rolls the dice? What's relevant is that, Icelander's houserules aside, nobody rolls the dice for the important effect. You just say what area you are suppressing, and it is so.

The Tactical Shooting rules, meanwhile, refer to 'anyone under fire', for the 'stay down' effect under Fire and Maneuver, and 'coming under suppression fire' for Cool Under Fire. Anyone in the suppression zone is under suppression fire, even if it's outright impossible for any bullets to actually hit them due to low effective skill.

The important effect, to be clear, is not hitting anybody with bullets. With suppressive fire, that was never at all likely anyway. The important effect is making the target make a fright check, plus a will roll if they want to poke their head out.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: What use is Suppression Fire?

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The Tactical Shooting rules, meanwhile, refer to 'anyone under fire', for the 'stay down' effect under Fire and Maneuver, and 'coming under suppression fire' for Cool Under Fire. Anyone in the suppression zone is under suppression fire, even if it's outright impossible for any bullets to actually hit them due to low effective skill.
It's worth emphasis, in case it hadn't occurred, that anyone coming under a sufficient volume of fire at all should be subject to these conditions—suppressive fire doesn't only suppress because you intend it to.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:22 AM   #40
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It's worth emphasis, in case it hadn't occurred, that anyone coming under a sufficient volume of fire at all should be subject to these conditions—suppressive fire doesn't only suppress because you intend it to.
Ruleswise, that gets a little hairy...regular attacks presumably count as being under fire for the will roll rule, but if you don't use Suppression Fire or explosives and don't either hit or miss by 2 or less, it doesn't trigger a Fright Check from Cool Under Fire.
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