Chargen Questions (with an AI question tossed in)

[apoc527]

I have a number of questions for everyone on making PCs in THS using 4th Edition GURPS:

(1) When buying the "off-the-shelf allies" in Changing Times, should PCs pay the point cost or the dollar cost? I'm assuing that during chargen, they should use the rules for Allies and pay the relevant point cost, but I just know people are going to ask why they can't buy these things with starting funds.

(2) How were the monetary values of the Off-the-shelf allies calculated? I've always been confused about it, but I'm sure I'm just missing a sentence somewhere that explains it perfectly.

(3) Are there any limits on skills for NAIs, LAIs, and SAIs? In other words, what can they NOT put points into? Is there a "max skill level" for these AIs?

(4) Say I want to play a genemod human with a VII and an LAI inside that VII. For the human, I know to just buy the relevant template and spend as many points as I like as I normally would. The LAI is fairly clearly an Ally with the Minion enhancement and Constant appearance. But what's the VII? Equipment purchased with funds or another ally? I think that you purchase the VII *with* the LAI as a single ally, totalling their points for purposes of calculating the Ally cost, but I'm not sure.

(5) Compartmentalized Mind is very powerful--when should AIs be allowed to buy it and when should they not? Could not an AI with Compartmentalized Mind running on a RATS take multiple Aim maneuvers per second, conceivably at different targets? (There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering about the capabilities of THS AIs.)

This one isn't about chargen specifically, but it's something I've been wondering: what exactly are NAIs and LAIs capable of? I think I understand SAIs--they are basically just people with all the variations and abilities that such a designation represents. Importantly, the AIs in THS do not seem to be the "superhuman mega intelligences" of other settings. I think of Cortana from Halo (though she may just be a decent SAI), EDI from Mass Effect, the military AIs from Schlock Mercenary (the webcomic) and many other AIs throughout fiction that simply put people to shame with their speed of operation and intelligence. It seems that AIs in THS do benefit from being computers, but aren't necessarily THAT much smarter. Obviously, my smartphone is a billion times faster at processing certain kinds of data than I am, but it's completely dumb, despite the moniker.

In summary, I kind of view an NAI is a higher tech version of Siri, LAIs as a Super Siri on Steroids (or a below average human or a human child), and SAIs as Lt. Commander Data with his emotion chip.

How am I doing? Thanks!

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by apoc527

(1) When buying the "off-the-shelf allies" in Changing Times, should PCs pay the point cost or the dollar cost? I'm assuming that during chargen, they should use the rules for Allies and pay the relevant point cost, but I just know people are going to ask why they can't buy these things with starting funds.

Points. They are not expensive: one that is worth 50% of the character's point total is 12cp. If someone insisted on buying it with money, I'd let him - but he'd have to learn how to use it, and he'd get loads of misunderstandings and error messages.

(3) Are there any limits on skills for NAIs, LAIs, and SAIs? In other words, what can they NOT put points into? Is there a "max skill level" for these AIs?

They can have any skills, at any level, but highly-trained AIs are very expensive.

(4) Say I want to play a genemod human with a VII and an LAI inside that VII. For the human, I know to just buy the relevant template and spend as many points as I like as I normally would. The LAI is fairly clearly an Ally with the Minion enhancement and Constant appearance. But what's the VII? Equipment purchased with funds or another ally? I think that you purchase the VII *with* the LAI as a single ally, totalling their points for purposes of calculating the Ally cost, but I'm not sure.

You're correct.

(5) Compartmentalized Mind is very powerful--when should AIs be allowed to buy it and when should they not? Could not an AI with Compartmentalized Mind running on a RATS take multiple Aim maneuvers per second, conceivably at different targets? (There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering about the capabilities of THS AIs.)

You'd need to be aiming different weapons - you can't get multiple Aims with the same weapon in the same turn - but otherwise it works.

In summary, I kind of view an NAI is a higher tech version of Siri, LAIs as a Super Siri on Steroids (or a below average human or a human child),

LAIs do have personalities. I've tended to play them as humans with limitations - they'll fail to understand stuff, or make mistakes when humans are being subtle. SAIs can have any kind of human personality. The reason we don't have SAI superminds in THS is that the technology is fairly new. In a couple of TLs THS could turn into something like Iain M Banks' Culture. If you've not read the Culture novels, you should - it's serious high-tech.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by apoc527

(1) When buying the "off-the-shelf allies" in Changing Times, should PCs pay the point cost or the dollar cost? I'm assuming that during chargen, they should use the rules for Allies and pay the relevant point cost, but I just know people are going to ask why they can't buy these things with starting funds.

Points. They are not expensive: one that is worth 50% of the character's point total is 12cp. If someone insisted on buying it with money, I'd let him - but he'd have to learn how to use it, and he'd get loads of misunderstandings and error messages. Paying cp is a way around that.

(3) Are there any limits on skills for NAIs, LAIs, and SAIs? In other words, what can they NOT put points into? Is there a "max skill level" for these AIs?

They can have any skills, at any level, but highly-trained AIs are very expensive.

(4) Say I want to play a genemod human with a VII and an LAI inside that VII. For the human, I know to just buy the relevant template and spend as many points as I like as I normally would. The LAI is fairly clearly an Ally with the Minion enhancement and Constant appearance. But what's the VII? Equipment purchased with funds or another ally? I think that you purchase the VII *with* the LAI as a single ally, totalling their points for purposes of calculating the Ally cost, but I'm not sure.

You're correct.

(5) Compartmentalized Mind is very powerful--when should AIs be allowed to buy it and when should they not? Could not an AI with Compartmentalized Mind running on a RATS take multiple Aim maneuvers per second, conceivably at different targets? (There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering about the capabilities of THS AIs.)

You'd need to be aiming different weapons - you can't get multiple Aims with the same weapon in the same turn - but otherwise it works.

In summary, I kind of view an NAI is a higher tech version of Siri, LAIs as a Super Siri on Steroids (or a below average human or a human child),

LAIs do have personalities. I've tended to play them as humans with limitations - they'll fail to understand stuff, or make mistakes when humans are being subtle. SAIs can have any kind of human personality. The reason we don't have SAI superminds in THS is that the technology is fairly new. In a couple of TLs THS could turn into something like Iain M Banks' Culture. If you've not read the Culture novels, you should - it's serious high-tech.

[RogerBW]

One thing to add to johndallman's comments:

Originally Posted by apoc527

(1) When buying the "off-the-shelf allies" in Changing Times, should PCs pay the point cost or the dollar cost? I'm assuing that during chargen, they should use the rules for Allies and pay the relevant point cost, but I just know people are going to ask why they can't buy these things with starting funds.

It's up to the GM. See "Mutable Point Totals", on p.18 of Changing Times, for one approach to this; another, as used in the Europe on Mars campaign, is to say "you have to pay for point-costing things with points, so if you don't have the points come up with an in-game reason why youre not buying it just yet".

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by apoc527

(1) When buying the "off-the-shelf allies" in Changing Times, should PCs pay the point cost or the dollar cost? I'm assuing that during chargen, they should use the rules for Allies and pay the relevant point cost, but I just know people are going to ask why they can't buy these things with starting funds.

Yes, it should usually be points cost. A good AI aide should feel like a friend, sidekick, and chauffeur. Sure, you can buy this sort of stuff for cash - let people do so if they insist, I suppose - but that should feel like they're employing a series of faintly unreliable, impersonal hirelings, and never getting to understand their little foibles. And the GM can always feel free to have those purchased AIs subverted or taken away at whim. Points buy a bit of plot protection.

Originally Posted by apoc527

(2) How were the monetary values of the Off-the-shelf allies calculated? I've always been confused about it, but I'm sure I'm just missing a sentence somewhere that explains it perfectly.

Base cost for each cybershell and AI type is listed wherever the type is first detailed. Costs for trained-in skills, attribute increases, mental advantages, etc., are discussed in Changing Times, p.60 ("AI Prices"). The off-the-shelf Ally prices were calculated using those rules.

Originally Posted by apoc527

(3) Are there any limits on skills for NAIs, LAIs, and SAIs? In other words, what can they NOT put points into? Is there a "max skill level" for these AIs?

The limits are mainly plausibility and training time. (Though the latter is theoretically quite flexible, given the ability to run accelerated training in VR.) Some AIs may well be insanely good at some skills - if someone has gone to the trouble of training them up that high (noting that beyond a certain point, there will be no instructors available with enough skill to be useful). But ramping skills beyond a certain point is not only difficult, it hits severe diminishing returns problems.

I've also been known to threaten players with unwanted attention from industrial spies or academic researchers if they create AI allies that are too much better than could be purchased on the open market, or which have nominal cash values higher than the party's entire asset list.

Originally Posted by apoc527

(4) Say I want to play a genemod human with a VII and an LAI inside that VII. For the human, I know to just buy the relevant template and spend as many points as I like as I normally would. The LAI is fairly clearly an Ally with the Minion enhancement and Constant appearance. But what's the VII? Equipment purchased with funds or another ally? I think that you purchase the VII *with* the LAI as a single ally, totalling their points for purposes of calculating the Ally cost, but I'm not sure.

An AI character ALWAYS takes two templates; one for the infomorph (its mind), one for its cybershell (its body). Neither represents a character on its own. So yes, this is just one character, with two templates - the VII and the LAI. See all the Off-the-Shelf Allies as examples.

Originally Posted by apoc527

(5) Compartmentalized Mind is very powerful--when should AIs be allowed to buy it and when should they not? Could not an AI with Compartmentalized Mind running on a RATS take multiple Aim maneuvers per second, conceivably at different targets? (There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just wondering about the capabilities of THS AIs.)

Compartmentalized Mind is indeed nice (though I tend to rule that you need enough computer capacity to run one program of your AI's complexity per "compartment" - you are in effect running multiple linked copies of the AI). But it's Compartmentalized Mind. It doesn't say anything about your body. To run multiple Aim manoeuvres, you'll also need a cybershell with levels of the Enhanced Tracking advantage - and to actually shoot more than one target in a round, you'll need Extra Attacks.

Unless you're prepared to throw a LOT of points at this stuff, Compartmentalized Mind is almost entirely about being able to think about several things at once. It's not meant to be a combat advantage.

Originally Posted by apoc527

This one isn't about chargen specifically, but it's something I've been wondering: what exactly are NAIs and LAIs capable of? I think I understand SAIs--they are basically just people with all the variations and abilities that such a designation represents. Importantly, the AIs in THS do not seem to be the "superhuman mega intelligences" of other settings. I think of Cortana from Halo (though she may just be a decent SAI), EDI from Mass Effect, the military AIs from Schlock Mercenary (the webcomic) and many other AIs throughout fiction that simply put people to shame with their speed of operation and intelligence. It seems that AIs in THS do benefit from being computers, but aren't necessarily THAT much smarter. Obviously, my smartphone is a billion times faster at processing certain kinds of data than I am, but it's completely dumb, despite the moniker.

In summary, I kind of view an NAI is a higher tech version of Siri, LAIs as a Super Siri on Steroids (or a below average human or a human child), and SAIs as Lt. Commander Data with his emotion chip.

The comparison I tend to use is that NAIs are basically voice-controlled operating systems. Very nice, but if Windows starts talking to you and even learning how to drive your car, it's still Windows. LAIs are like HAL in 2001 (before it went crazy); you can talk to them, but they're not great conversationalists. SAIs are basically people. Fast-thinking people which can run on all sorts of hardware, sure, but no, they aren't gods.