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Old 08-02-2012, 11:55 PM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

In my Df world there is a distinction between planes and dimensions. Dimensions are like the science fiction version where there are other dimensions of the material world like the 4th dimension, 23rd dimension, millionth dimension, trillionth dimension and so on. Within these higher dimensions live the Elder Things who are able (at times) to traverse the span between dimensions and enter the dimension of humanity. These higher dimensions are far beyond the understanding of mortal minds and those viewing it often end up insane. The dimensions are infinitely high and when high enough they approach chaos. The dimensions may also be infinitely lower as well but exploring whether this is true might cause even more insanity. All in all, the dimension of humanity is pretty meaningless in comparison the the infinite material world of higher and lower orders.

Planes, at least the planes that humans come into contact with, are spiritual and overlap the material world in that dimension. Heaven, Hell, Asgard, Olympus, the Abyss, Fairy-realm etc. are all spiritual connections to the material world. It is said they need the minds and beliefs of mankind to survive and in return for this they also help to protect the material plane from threats from higher dimensions like Elder Things.

The fact that planes are separate realities from the material allow spells like Banish to work on those beings from other planes (demons, angels, fairies, spirits etc.) But Elder Things are from another dimension of the material world and that is why the can not be banished. But they could be shunted back into another dimension by the spell Dimension Shift however.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
In my Df world there is a distinction between planes and dimensions. Dimensions are like the science fiction version where there are other dimensions of the material world like the 4th dimension, 23rd dimension, millionth dimension, trillionth dimension and so on. Within these higher dimensions live the Elder Things who are able (at times) to traverse the span between dimensions and enter the dimension of humanity. These higher dimensions are far beyond the understanding of mortal minds and those viewing it often end up insane. The dimensions are infinitely high and when high enough they approach chaos. The dimensions may also be infinitely lower as well but exploring whether this is true might cause even more insanity. All in all, the dimension of humanity is pretty meaningless in comparison the the infinite material world of higher and lower orders.
I like the idea of "other dimensions", but I like to keep in mind the idea of them as different "directions". Basically no one "lives" in a dimension - it'd be like saying you lived in "depth"; everything except hypothetical Flatlanders do that! Some entities may be able traverse higher dimensions as easily we can traverse our own (in fact, flying animals are much better at the third dimension than we are); we could call that "living in that higher dimension (as opposed to having your position in it be a static fact that you take for granted). Alternatively, a being "living in a higher dimension" might simply be in a different position in that dimension, perhaps even a small distance, and able to "coexist" in the "same space" as you, in the same way an upstairs apartment "exists in the same space" as the ones beneath it... as long as you ignore the 3rd dimension.

Then again, "dimension" has acquired a lot of all-over-the-place slang meaning in sci-fi and in culture in general. In mathematics, there is even the idea of fractional or fractal dimensions, which may well turn out to have physical meaning and usefulness.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:03 AM   #3
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

One way of looking at "Things Mankind Was Not Meant To Know" could be that if entirely in this level of existence they couldn't exist, but by keeping most of themselves in other levels of an extra spacial dimension they can.
Like keeping just your hand in water too cold for your body, you can mess with the strange creatures in a tide pool.

It also adds a level of terror in imagining what would happen if they figure out a way to come into this level fully, or just stick their whole "arm" or "face" in.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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Originally Posted by JCurwen3 View Post
I like the idea of "other dimensions", but I like to keep in mind the idea of them as different "directions". Basically no one "lives" in a dimension - it'd be like saying you lived in "depth"; everything except hypothetical Flatlanders do that! Some entities may be able traverse higher dimensions as easily we can traverse our own (in fact, flying animals are much better at the third dimension than we are); we could call that "living in that higher dimension (as opposed to having your position in it be a static fact that you take for granted). Alternatively, a being "living in a higher dimension" might simply be in a different position in that dimension, perhaps even a small distance, and able to "coexist" in the "same space" as you, in the same way an upstairs apartment "exists in the same space" as the ones beneath it... as long as you ignore the 3rd dimension.

Then again, "dimension" has acquired a lot of all-over-the-place slang meaning in sci-fi and in culture in general. In mathematics, there is even the idea of fractional or fractal dimensions, which may well turn out to have physical meaning and usefulness.
The idea of other dimensions for me is that other dimensions are "natural" while planes are supernatural. The Elder Things defy understanding and can live in other dimensions of reality that mankind can not comprehend. The Elder Things in my DF world are as natural as water and stone and are the sad truth of reality that man was not meant to know. On the other-hand, planes are supernatural other worlds that are connected to the dimension that humans and other mortals live in and mortal beings have meaning to the beings in other planes. Humans have no meaning to the Elder Things of other dimensions however as they are but food to them. In short, beings from other planes are spiritual in nature while Elder Things are mundane but living in dimensions that man does not know of.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
One way of looking at "Things Mankind Was Not Meant To Know" could be that if entirely in this level of existence they couldn't exist, but by keeping most of themselves in other levels of an extra spacial dimension they can.
Like keeping just your hand in water too cold for your body, you can mess with the strange creatures in a tide pool.

It also adds a level of terror in imagining what would happen if they figure out a way to come into this level fully, or just stick their whole "arm" or "face" in.
That is exactly why I am choosing Elder Things to be from another dimension as opposed to being from another plane. When the manifest in the human dimension they appear to defy the laws of geometry and physics. A tentacled mass would not just be octopoidal but its tentacles would seem to writhe in an out of existence and move in ways that seem impossible. Some things like strange crystals and altars are made of materials from other dimensions and that is why they cause insanity to those who observe them. The reason that temples and rituals are needed to bring Elder Things into the mortal world is that the energies from these temples and rituals "soften" the laws of physical reality allowing the extra-dimensional creatures to come in.

To be fair, worship of demons also "softens" reality to allow evil to enter but this is spiritual and brings forth purpose like evil into material reality. Extra-dimensional beings have no concern whatsoever for morality or the way that humans view life so that is a big difference. Spirits and fairies have a great interest in the affairs of humanity while for Elder Things humanity is just a chemical reactions that thinks they are alive.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

What about the opposite, things that drive Elder Things batty?
A child's laughter burrows into their heads?
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
What about the opposite, things that drive Elder Things batty?
A child's laughter burrows into their heads?
Hastur appears to get irritated when people talk about him. Water blocks Cthulhu's telepathy.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

Ok, I'm not sure what the point of the OP is, but the inner mathematician is forcing me to bite:

are these "creatures from another dimension" three dimensional creatures who can move through more dimensions than the three we exist in, or are they multi-dimensional creatures of whom we can only see cross sections?

what's three feet over in the fourth dimension?

and don't use the "its not euclidean" cop-out, because everything is euclidean if you add enough dimensions for it to exist in (and you usually don't need to add very many).

the other "planes": can they be reached through the other dimensions the "Things" travel through? or is that describing where the things live? If not, is there a dimension that connects them?

just be aware you are using two terms that essentially mean the same thing, as "plane" as used in this context literally refers to another place separated by a dimension we can't travel through.

I love thinking about this stuff, but to be quite honest lovecraft's "other dimensions" have more scientific holes in them than telepathy. He lampshades it, of course by saying "don't think about it or you'll go insane".
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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what's three feet over in the fourth dimension?
How fast is the object moving? :)
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: [DF] Planes vs Dimensions

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How fast is the object moving? :)
spacial, spacial. You know what I mean.
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