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Old 06-22-2012, 12:32 PM   #11
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Originally Posted by Steven Marsh View Post
(As an aside, I'll take this moment to thank Douglas for effort he put in to make the first half of the article clearer to me... it didn't change the underlying system, but the presentation felt a lot more accessible once the dust settled.)
This is the "right back at you" section, since the dialog made notable improvements in the way the system played, and Steven's suggestion solved some real issues with how to explain this concept.

Quote:
Anyway, the way I kept it straight in my mind as I was editing it -- and how I'd likely run it, if I used this system in a game -- is to envision the "pool" to be three different-colored counters/chips/M&Ms/whatever:
  • Green -- Light
  • Yellow -- Severe
  • Red -- Deep
This works very well.

Quote:
Thus someone with 10 FP would have:
  • Green
  • Green
  • Green
  • Green
  • Green
  • Yellow
  • Yellow
  • Yellow
  • Yellow
  • Yellow
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red
  • Red

When you spend FP, first you burn the greens, then the yellows, and then the reds. When you recover, first you recover the greens, then the yellows, and finally the reds. This makes it entirely possible to have all your greens and all your reds, and none of your yellows. (I'd probably make custom counters for each player so that -- in addition to being color-coded -- the counters also listed how long each one took to earn back.)

I'm not sure if this is any clearer to you, but it worked for me when I was mulling it over. :-)
The only change I made above is the number of total "coins" or "chips." You have 5 FP of mild fatigue (10 FP down to 6 FP), 5 FP of severe fatigue (5 FP down to 0 FP), and 10 FP of deep fatigue (from 0 FP down to -10 FP).

This "where do the poker chips go" method is the best way of visualizing (and gaming!) how this works by far, and honestly it's due to Steven's prodding.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

Oh, boy. But how I want Abstract Wealth... Now if I can just figure out how to sign on without the fershluginner website kicking me off again...

I don't know what it is but I always seem to end up having to reset my password with SJG...
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Can't wait for your review!
I can't be timely with getting it out, but here is the conclusion:

Buy all "Power Ups" and "Alternate GURPS" titles on sight. If you buy nothing else for your Basic Set, buy these.

I can say that now without having read them all because SJG's quality standards are so high and so consistent.
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Last edited by Jeffr0; 06-22-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The only change I made above is the number of total "coins" or "chips." You have 5 FP of mild fatigue (10 FP down to 6 FP), 5 FP of severe fatigue (5 FP down to 0 FP), and 10 FP of deep fatigue (from 0 FP down to -10 FP).
Yeah, I wasn't thinking it through (and was more trying to convey the visualization "order" than mathematical rigor); I edited my original post to reflect what you wrote.

Quote:
This "where do the poker chips go" method is the best way of visualizing (and gaming!) how this works by far, and honestly it's due to Steven's prodding.
Hah! I knew those umpteen-jillion hours I spent playing White Wolf games would pay off! :-)
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:38 PM   #15
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Oh, I guess that's another question. With FP being a more valuable resource (in terms of the difficulty to recover it and the consequences of losing it) would this alter the value of advantages that restore it? There's mention of Regenerate FP (keeping the same cost, though with additional intermediate levels) but what about things like Leech or Absorptive DR? I'm presuming that they'd stay the same, since they're not mentioned.

Anyways, thanks for humoring me guys! Wanted to make sure I understand it correctly. ^_^
I suspect that if you ALSO use the AP rules, no point changes are required. If you DON'T, FP drains may well be much more powerful, and thus worth even more points. I wrote these two things as one article, then realized it would be a stronger piece if it were more modular, but if you ONLY increase the FP recover rate from 1 per 10 min up to 2 hours or even more (24 hours per FP at 10 FP starting out), this can be big deal.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The only change I made above is the number of total "coins" or "chips." You have 5 FP of mild fatigue (10 FP down to 6 FP), 5 FP of severe fatigue (5 FP down to 0 FP), and 10 FP of deep fatigue (from 0 FP down to -10 FP).

This "where do the poker chips go" method is the best way of visualizing (and gaming!) how this works by far, and honestly it's due to Steven's prodding.
Oh, this reminds me of another thought I had, something along the lines of a Vitality Reserve, an extra pool of "green chips". This would certainly be more valuable than simply Extra FP, which would be distributed 1/1/2 into the green/yellow/red piles. Maybe Extra FP (Cosmic, +50%)? Or should they just boost their total FP by 4 if they want the +1 mild fatigue? Hmm... I suppose it could be something like Extra FP 4 (Mild only, -X%), but that's getting kinda wonky.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I suspect that if you ALSO use the AP rules, no point changes are required. If you DON'T, FP drains may well be much more powerful, and thus worth even more points. I wrote these two things as one article, then realized it would be a stronger piece if it were more modular, but if you ONLY increase the FP recover rate from 1 per 10 min up to 2 hours or even more (24 hours per FP at 10 FP starting out), this can be big deal.
How so? In a sense, using the AP rules gives another thing that FP may need to be spent on (Second Wind to recover 50% AP). Or is the intent that many things which currently drain FP will switch to AP instead?

Last edited by vierasmarius; 06-22-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Yeesh, you're right. I never contemplated altering Basic Speed, since mucking with turn order is in the "Don't do it, EVER" territory in terms of how GURPS works.
Even in the play test I don't recall seeing anyone mention that. Its just way to messy to change turn order in the middle of a fight. Also a turn is a turn and changing that could result in the fatigued character getting extra actions.
ie: Go at Speed 6 lose our stat then go at speed 5
Even if you took that into account and just say go later next time your still mucking about with duration effects and such.
Example Speed 6 all out defend, oops now your at Speed 5; Next guy at speed 5.5 goes after your first turn and then has to deal with your still boosted defenses on the next turn because you have not gone yet.

Same with DX drains and such in a fight.

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Old 06-22-2012, 01:21 PM   #18
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Oh, this reminds me of another thought I had, something along the lines of a Vitality Reserve, an extra pool of "green chips". This would certainly be more valuable than simply Extra FP, which would be distributed 1/1/2 into the green/yellow/red piles. Maybe Extra FP (Cosmic, +50%)? Or should they just boost their total FP by 4 if they want the +1 mild fatigue? Hmm... I suppose it could be something like Extra FP 4 (Mild only, -X%), but that's getting kinda wonky.
I like the "+50% to +100% Cosmic" option, because it breaks a rule and removes the opportunity cost for using a particular resource. If FP are currently 3 points/level, 5 points for extra "mild" FP has a nice round ring to it. :-)

In fact, adding particular FP to any given "color" pool is an interesting option. Since when you burn your last "red" chip, you start taking extra damage, maximum penalties, etc, having a bit more grit before you drop would be kinda neat. Of course, you're at -100% to ST before then, so some amount of tweaking to other parts might be required. :-)


Quote:
How so? In a sense, using the AP rules gives another thing that FP may need to be spent on (Second Wind to recover 50% AP). Or is the intent that many things which currently drain FP will switch to AP instead?
I was a bit imprecise. If you're mainly going through life spending AP in combat, due to spells, extra effort, etc, then taking a few hours to recover FP, but still being able to cast a spell or whatever after sufficient rest, which might be seconds to minutes, depending on your FP status and resultant HT penalty, wouldn't be too bad.

So if you're depending only on FP to power those things, yes, you probably have increased their value, as well as the power of things that drain them.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/44: Alternate GURPS II

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I was a bit imprecise. If you're mainly going through life spending AP in combat, due to spells, extra effort, etc, then taking a few hours to recover FP, but still being able to cast a spell or whatever after sufficient rest, which might be seconds to minutes, depending on your FP status and resultant HT penalty, wouldn't be too bad.

So if you're depending only on FP to power those things, yes, you probably have increased their value, as well as the power of things that drain them.
Sounds like I may need to do some tweaking before implementing it in-game, especially when it comes to normally FP-powered options like Extra Effort, spells and chi skills (ie, the "powers" most often used in DF-style games). I'm assuming since you made no mention of Energy Reserve that its recovery rules are unchanged, and anything powered by ER should retain its normal energy cost. Abilities powered by FP may either see their cost drop by a factor of roughly 10, or else rise by a factor of 10 as an AP cost. This does leave a precarious middle ground of about 3-5 FP, where it doesn't feel right to charge a whole FP, but 30-50 AP is beyond what can be spent in combat. Hmm... I suspect that there's an appropriate exchange rate somewhere in there, maybe something like 5 AP + 3 AP per FP (since a lot of AP all at once is harder to deal with than the same amount spread over multiple seconds).
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:49 PM   #20
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I don't know what it is but I always seem to end up having to reset my password with SJG...
I only realised this year that SJG and e23 have two different password logins. If you change one, forget which it was, then sign in to the other... Hilarity ensues.
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