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Old 06-12-2012, 08:39 PM   #41
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
"Will N/A" is just a consequence of having "IQ N/A".
Not exactly. Something can be capable of certain types of mental activity without having volition. Will N/A is pretty much 'Metatrait: Immunity to Abilities Resisted by Will; Slave Mentality'.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:08 PM   #42
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Not exactly. Something can be capable of certain types of mental activity without having volition. Will N/A is pretty much 'Metatrait: Immunity to Abilities Resisted by Will; Slave Mentality'.
It seems that a common misconception is to confuse the capitalized GURPS term "Will" with the everyday word "will". Actually, the Will score by definition of p. B16 is not related to what we call "will" in the real life. Whether the character has a high or low score or N/A score of Will is not directly related to whether he has volition or whatever we refer to as the everyday word "will".
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #43
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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I agree that the "Will N/A" notation is not very meaningful by itself, but I find the distinction between "IQ 0" and "IQ N/A" clearly useful. "IQ 0" would mean that the character has a very low intellectual ability so that he'd need extra +10 bonus to get an effective skill of 10, while "IQ N/A" would mean that the character (object) performs no mental activity at all. "Will N/A" is just a consequence of having "IQ N/A".
Based on the non-sapience line, the animal IQ listing, and the way inanimate objects are statted as characters, it seems that IQ (unlike the aforementioned DX, Will, Per, and HT) does have special qualitative effect, and in particular that IQ 0 means there's no 'mind' there, the same as IQ N/A would convey.

I wouldn't mind being able to treat low IQ the same as the other attributes, which might create a niche for IQ N/A, but it seems contrary to the rules.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:40 PM   #44
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Based on the non-sapience line, the animal IQ listing, and the way inanimate objects are statted as characters, it seems that IQ (unlike the aforementioned DX, Will, Per, and HT) does have special qualitative effect, and in particular that IQ 0 means there's no 'mind' there, the same as IQ N/A would convey.

I wouldn't mind being able to treat low IQ the same as the other attributes, which might create a niche for IQ N/A, but it seems contrary to the rules.
I think I'm aware of how the current GURPS rules work. I know that there's no such thing as "IQ N/A" in any of the 4e GURPS books and that "IQ 0" is the label for non-sentience. If the topic of this thread were what "IQ 0" currently means in the GURPS rules as we know, everyone including me would agree with you.

However, in this thread I think we're discussing "how people think the rules should be" (opinions), as opposed to "how the current rules work" (facts). True, removing the notion of non-sentience from "IQ 0" and creating a new notation "IQ N/A" do contradict the current rules, but it's not a problem. We're talking about whether allowing "Attribute N/A" is better or not than what's currently written in the GURPS books, and I support the view introducing "Attribute N/A" and distinguishing it from "Attribute 0" is better.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:31 PM   #45
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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I think I'm aware of how the current GURPS rules work. I know that there's no such thing as "IQ N/A" in any of the 4e GURPS books and that "IQ 0" is the label for non-sentience. If the topic of this thread were what "IQ 0" currently means in the GURPS rules as we know, everyone including me would agree with you.

However, in this thread I think we're discussing "how people think the rules should be" (opinions), as opposed to "how the current rules work" (facts). True, removing the notion of non-sentience from "IQ 0" and creating a new notation "IQ N/A" do contradict the current rules, but it's not a problem. We're talking about whether allowing "Attribute N/A" is better or not than what's currently written in the GURPS books, and I support the view introducing "Attribute N/A" and distinguishing it from "Attribute 0" is better.
Okay then.

I think the only attribute where N/A could mean something is IQ. And splitting off N/A from 0 doesn't really do anything to free up the IQ scale. You also have to re-assign the sapience barrier and re-map the deep cognitive limitations of animals at IQ 1 and 2.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:50 PM   #46
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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I think the only attribute where N/A could mean something is IQ.
ST and DX are both N/A for things incapable of physical actions. Fatigue is canonically N/A for most machines. The only attributes that can't be N/A are HT and HP.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:44 AM   #47
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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ST and DX are both N/A for things incapable of physical actions. Fatigue is canonically N/A for most machines. The only attributes that can't be N/A are HT and HP.
I would state some divine beings at N/A HP. I mean, really, should Q have HP?
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:29 AM   #48
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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I would state some divine beings at N/A HP. I mean, really, should Q have HP?
Yes. Just with defenses high enough that he's not going to take damage from much.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:08 AM   #49
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Yes. Just with defenses high enough that he's not going to take damage from much.
A little off-topic, but definitely agreed here. I'd give him Unkillable 3 and Extreme Regen, allowing him to quickly "reform" his body if disrupted. (Not to mention his other Ultimate Cosmic Powers, of course.)

I can't think of any entities from Star Trek that would obviously have an attribute N/A. Maybe the Borg while connected to the Collective would have Will N/A, but I think that's more a case of using the Collective's Will instead of their own (possibly quite low) Will score.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:20 AM   #50
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

B16 'Machines and Fatigue' already gives us a precedent for using N/A with Attributes (or at least a Secondary Characteristic), namely FP.

PK has an article on his site Nipping Problem Allies in the Bud, which includes a discussion on the issue of non-sentient Allies (Non-Sentient Allies on the Cheap), and the extra 400 points to spend issue created by buying DX and IQ down to Zero.
The solution involves non-sentient Allies having IQ (and Per/Will) of N/A for 0 points.

Trying to equate N/A in various Attributes to 'real world' characteristics and scenarios isn't the way to look at this; these are Game Mechanic terms and meanings.

ST N/A might reasonably apply to a Ghost or other Insubstantial Creature from a material world perspective - but the being probably has a ST score in the insubstantial world.

If there is a game mechanical reason why something can't use an Attribute, or can't be affected by something which targets (or is resisted by) that Attribute, then it seems reasonable to say that it has N/A for that Attribute.
Whether N/A in all Attributes should cost 0 points is another matter!
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