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Old 06-11-2012, 04:55 PM   #21
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
So a computer AI that has no physical form, and thus has ST N/A, might get points back for that disadvantage, but not for selling down ST (which feels to me like a point crock).
Note that GURPS avoids the need for ST N/A by making everybody physical in a sense.

If you play an AI, your ST will be based on the hardware you're occupying.

If you're a non-corporeal spirit, ST still comes up when interacting with similarly incorporeal things, or with things with abilities that can target incorporeal things.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Note that GURPS avoids the need for ST N/A by making everybody physical in a sense.
This is true. Just because a characters attributes may change casually doesn't mean they don't have attributes.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:37 PM   #23
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think the limits on attributes are meant to be the limits of human variability. Non-humans or super-humans can violate them with GM's permission, but I don't think that "normals" can.
The spirit of my post was that Will 0 doesn't mean that the said character is a "thing" which completely lacks free will and volition. By definition, Will is just nothing more than a measurement of "ability to withstand psychological stress (brainwashing, fear, hypnotism, interrogation, seduction, torture, etc.)" and "resistance to supernatural attacks (magic, psionics, etc.)" (see p. 16 for the definition of Will). It's true that having IQ 10 and Will 0 gives him a severe susceptibility to psychological stress and supernatural attacks, but it's the end of the effect. He is a person who thinks and feels and just has happened to have a low ability to resist some categories of threats.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
The spirit of my post was that Will 0 doesn't mean that the said character is a "thing" which completely lacks free will and volition. By definition, Will is just nothing more than a measurement of "ability to withstand psychological stress (brainwashing, fear, hypnotism, interrogation, seduction, torture, etc.)" and "resistance to supernatural attacks (magic, psionics, etc.)" (see p. 16 for the definition of Will). It's true that having IQ 10 and Will 0 gives him a severe susceptibility to psychological stress and supernatural attacks, but it's the end of the effect. He is a person who thinks and feels and just has happened to have a low ability to resist some categories of threats.
Yeah. The only Attribute that actually suggests direct implications on your personhood is IQ, because low values put you on par with fairly stupid animals and specifically make you unable to use language or technology, and 0 specifically is used for inanimate objects.

Even then low IQ without the corresponding mental disadvantages you could get to a kind of odd place.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:25 AM   #25
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I think the concept is useful but not uniformly applicable.
Others have made similar comments. Can you elaborate?
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
I don't think so. According to the definition on p. B16, Will 0 doesn't mean lack of volition -- it's just a measurement of "ability to withstand psychological stress (brainwashing, fear, hypnotism, interrogation, seduction, torture, etc.)" and "resistance to supernatural attacks (magic, psionics, etc.)". An IQ 10 human can sell down his Will for 5 points/Will and get Will 0 [-50] and 50 points (although reducing Will by more than 4 requires the GM's permission). He'll certainly have much trouble, e.g., withdrawing from Addiction and resisting Mind-Reading spell, but he's still a human with average intelligence, not a "thing".
Note that I did say "to me". In fact, I don't think it makes much sense for a human character to be created with a Will 0... certainly not the way I am envisioning zero-level attributes.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Others have made similar comments. Can you elaborate?
Not sure I have anything useful to add to the thread but ok.
A magic sword could be built as everything but HT as N/A or it could have all the attributes. Even with No manipulators and no ability to move..
IQ for able to talk and cast spells
DX to aim with those spells.
ST to say resist knockback in case you chose not to use HP. That one is the most useless without manipulators or movement ability.

So I can see where you may ascribe the NA disadvantage to something but there are plenty of cases where it may not be appropriate.
As far as I can recall the only thing in RAW that is N/A is the machine metatrait that makes it effectively IQ N/A for most mental control type powers and NA for FP.

So we could add more but they should allow you to buy the attribute to 0. Also I would say typically they are advantages and base pricing (very roughly) off Immunity.

In an old game system (Ysgarth) Undead were described s a once living thing that is now missing one or more of its components.
Body, Mind, Soul/Spirit.
Remove anyone and you have an Undead rather then living thing.
Body only gave you a zombie
Body plus Mind gave you an intelligent zombie, say a mummy.
Mind and Spirit gave you a ghost or remove mind for a mindless ghost.
Whatever was missing could not be attacked.

In GURPS we do not remove the Body (HT/ST) as it can be targeted by other insubstantial things.
A rock could have Will if you ascribe to Animist beliefs.
It wants to be a rock and would resist change.
However in other settings it would be just a rock and not have a Will or IQ.

So I see us having multiple levels and options.
Default is normal attributes, bought up or down as appropriate.
Next are some advantages that make you immune to things that would affect that attribute or be resisted by them.
Say ...
Soul Less
You have no soul or spirit and cannot be harmed by anything that affects those characteristics. However you also cannot use them to resist effects.
You may have a mind but normal telepathy and magical mind powers will not work on you. You may not use your Will to resist or block any ability.

EDIT: Most of the original question can be easily handled by GM fiat and a part of the setting.
If you have a malediction that represents pyrokinesis heating someone up but is resisted by Will then the GM needs to plan for that in his campaign and either allow it or not based on what he wants for the feel.

Last edited by Refplace; 06-12-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by Gurps Fan View Post
The spirit of my post was that Will 0 doesn't mean that the said character is a "thing" which completely lacks free will and volition. By definition, Will is just nothing more than a measurement of "ability to withstand psychological stress (brainwashing, fear, hypnotism, interrogation, seduction, torture, etc.)" and "resistance to supernatural attacks (magic, psionics, etc.)"
.
That definition is based on the idea that subject being referred actually has some will. But it's fairly clear Will 0 is only given to things and not creatures.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:51 PM   #29
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
... But it's fairly clear Will 0 is only given to things and not creatures.
It may be clear to you, but I remain unconvinced. Can you address the examples of Will 0 creatures I gave above?
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:17 PM   #30
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?

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It may be clear to you, but I remain unconvinced. Can you address the examples of Will 0 creatures I gave above?
I can not even find any examples of Will 0 creatures you gave "above"
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