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Old 06-01-2012, 10:15 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
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Default Comments on 6-1 Rules

This is a PDF of the rules that have gone to layout. The next PDF that I post for comment will be actual layout, though almost surely w/o all graphics in place. But those tables that you hate will be formatted.

Reminder: Suggestions to reorganize the rules, add X, delete Y, etc., are not useful at this point.

Many thanks to Daniel Jew for getting those extra decimals into the section numbers.

Things NOT to worry about:
- Any wording change you have suggested before. If I didn't do it, I am not going to.
- The cost difference between the total of all an Ogre's parts and its point value. That gets worked on next.
- Perceived spaces before and after a slash. They're not really there.

Things to worry about:
- Any actual typo still present, unless somebody has already pointed to it in this thread.
- 5.07.1
- 5.11.3
- 6.07.1 and .3
- The whole of Section 9. Train speed markers are now separate pieces.
- 13.0.12

See also the new separate threads on Rules Terminology and Record Sheets.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Ogre final draft.pdf (526.9 KB, 660 views)
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:45 PM   #2
KevinR
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Things to worry about:
- Any actual typo still present, unless somebody has already pointed to it in this thread.
- 5.07.1
- 5.11.3
- 6.07.1 and .3
- The whole of Section 9. Train speed markers are now separate pieces.
- 13.0.12
Typos and Train later.

5.07.1 Looks fine to me. The first sentence is complex, but I don't see a simpler way to rewrite a conditional that complex. (I'd tend to go with something like "If a unit (1) ... (2) ... and (3) ..., then ...", but that isn't sufficiently better to be worth changing.)

5.11.3 Looks good. Seems quite clear.

6.07.1 The Superheavy rules are a bit complex, but I think it makes sense. When a Superheavy rams an Ogre, I think this happens:
* the Ogre loses 1d6 of treads,
* the Superheavy loses 5 treads (3 against a Mark I) [if it has treads under 13.07], and
* the Superheavy suffers a 1-1 attack [whether or not using 13.07].

I might drop the "also" from the first sentence of the exception.

6.07.3 I think this is much clearer than the Exception in 6.07.1. Given the redundancy, perhaps rewrite both as follows:

Quote:
6.07.1 ... Exception: Superheavy (see 6.07.3).
6.07.3 Ramming by Superheavies. A Superheavy may ram any unit as an Ogre Mk. I. It suffers a 1-1 attack. If optional rule 13.07 is in use, it also loses treads as a Mk. I.
I haven't checked to see if the text in blue is going to create confusion about ramming buildings...

13.01.2 Seems clear to me.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:00 PM   #3
BillK
 
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Location: North Carolina
Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Quoted Rules:
---------------------------
4.02 Phases of a turn. The turn sequence for each player in a two-player game is:
(1) Recovery.
(a) All the player’s units which were disabled before his last turn by enemy fire now recover automatically. Turn the counters right-side-up.
---------------------------
7.11 ...
[5th paragraph] A unit disabled by enemy fire recovers after one full enemy turn has passed. If it becomes disabled on an enemy turn, it remains disabled through that enemy turn, through its own turn, and through the next enemy turn; it then recovers. In other words, if you disable a unit, you can shoot at it for the rest of that turn, and for your next turn, while it’s disabled.
[6th paragraph] A unit disabled on its own turn (e.g., by terrain) remains disabled through the enemy turn and rolls to recover on its next turn.
-------------------------

Question: Are there non-terrain ways of becoming disabled during your own turn? [By the shockwave of a friendly cruise missile, for instance? Or by friendly spillover fire against an enemy Ogre co-located with one of your own units--6.08.1?] If so, then these two rules should probably be tweaked. Specifically:

4.02(1)(a): All the player’s units which were disabled by weapon fire prior to the beginning of his opponent's last turn now recover automatically. Turn the counters right-side-up.

7.11 [6th paragraph]: A unit disabled on its own turn remains disabled through the enemy turn and recovers (automatically if it was disabled by weapon fire, or via dice roll if it was disabled by terrain) at the beginning of its next turn.

Last edited by BillK; 06-01-2012 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:15 PM   #4
KevinR
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Train comments. These may be too complex for the current stage of editing.

9.02.1 Changing speed The Note needs to be changed, since the "front" counter no longer exists.

I think this is all clear, but I want to double-check that I understand the interaction between 0/1 movement direction and change in speed.
* Start the turn at 0/1 with arrow pointing right.
* Using the last paragraph of 9.02, move the train one hex left and rotate the speed to 0/1 with arrow pointing left.
* Then, under 9.02.1, the train player can choose 0/1 left, 0/1 right, or 2/3 left, but cannot choose 2/3 right.

Another question: Can a train at 0/1 right flip to 0/1 left during the movement phase (but not actually move), and then accelerate to 2/3 left at the end of the turn.

Final question: Does "the end of each turn" mean after the train player has resolved all his attacks, but before the next player's turn? This would be my reading, but it is not glaringly obvious, particularly whether attacks are resolved before deciding on the speed for next turn.

9.03 Attacks on the train I think that the end of the second paragraph is confusing:
Quote:
If an attack destroys the front of a moving train, the whole train is destroyed; remove the counters unless there are other trains in the scenario.
I think that everything underlined ("unless ...") is confusing and unnecessary. Even if there are multiple trains in the scenario, it seems that this train has been destroyed and should be removed.

For the third paragraph: if the front of the train is destroyed, are the tracks under the rear of the train cut?

9.03.1 Armed train If a scenario includes a train, does the player always have the option of making it an armed train (unless prohibited by the scenario)? If not, this section should start with something like "If permitted by a scenario, the defender may exchange...".

9.06 Collisions I like these rules. The armed unit rules seem to make quite a bit of sense. But, I have no clue what this means: "Take the total Size Class of the enemy units and treat that as an attack on the train."

Maybe rewrite that sentence to "Calculate the total Size Class of the enemy units: if 6 or greater, the train is destroyed; if 5, the front of the train suffers a 1-1 attack; if 4 or less, the train suffers a 1-2 attack."

9.07 Train reinforcements Can infantry move in the turn they exit a train?
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

9.07 ...Only two vehicles per turn may exit each half of the train, and they do not move further on that turn....


just to clarify: the units may exit to any of the 5 adjacent non-train hexes?
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:33 PM   #6
KevinR
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgbeal View Post
9.07 ...Only two vehicles per turn may exit each half of the train, and they do not move further on that turn....


just to clarify: the units may exit to any of the 5 adjacent non-train hexes?
My reading is that they are still in the train hex.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:37 PM   #7
shantke
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

“Note: Obviously, a hex 1.5 km across could hold thousands of units. The stacking limit is arbitrary: it makes play faster and represents a reasonable doctrine for commanders facing weapons that can devastate a whole hex at once. By agreement, players can change or ignore stacking limits and take the consequences of Cruise Missile and spillover fire (7.12) attacks.”

This is AWESOME! My fiends and I will be very happy, and the people who like stacking as written will stay happy since they can ignore this section. In the Big battles we used to call stacks, that hadn't a chance to fan out and got decimated by spillover fire "stacks of snacks." Always a good time.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinR View Post
My reading is that they are still in the train hex.
Ah, that sounds somewhat more likely, but was not my initial interpretation.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:00 AM   #9
offsides
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Comments through Section 6 from my first read:

5.07.2 Recommend changing the Note: to "GEVs also get road bonuses..." (change listed in bold). Otherwise the note feels semi-contradictory and/or redundant to the previous sentence.

5.08.1 Does water cost Marines M2 to enter, or M1? 3.02.1 implies M1, but 5.08.1 implies M2...

5.11.3 Looks good to me.

6.01 Change the last sentence to "For most other units,...", since SHVY's don't die automatically.

6.02.1 The reference to the optional SHVY tread rules should be to 13.07, not 6.07.1.

6.07.1 vs. 6.07.3 Change the exception in 6.07.1 to be a reference to 6.07.3, it's much clearer. Also, you might want to swap 6.07.2 and 6.07.3, since .1 and .3 currently refer to ramming Ogres, and .2 refers to ramming other units.

6.07.2 Recommend changing the "title" from "Ramming by GEVs." to "GEVs Ramming other units." since it doesn't apply to GEVs ramming Ogres.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:11 AM   #10
offsides
 
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Default Re: Comments on 6-1 Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Quoted Rules:
---------------------------
4.02 Phases of a turn. The turn sequence for each player in a two-player game is:
(1) Recovery.
(a) All the player’s units which were disabled before his last turn by enemy fire now recover automatically. Turn the counters right-side-up.
---------------------------
7.11 ...
[5th paragraph] A unit disabled by enemy fire recovers after one full enemy turn has passed. If it becomes disabled on an enemy turn, it remains disabled through that enemy turn, through its own turn, and through the next enemy turn; it then recovers. In other words, if you disable a unit, you can shoot at it for the rest of that turn, and for your next turn, while it’s disabled.
[6th paragraph] A unit disabled on its own turn (e.g., by terrain) remains disabled through the enemy turn and rolls to recover on its next turn.
-------------------------

Question: Are there non-terrain ways of becoming disabled during your own turn? [By the shockwave of a friendly cruise missile, for instance? Or by friendly spillover fire against an enemy Ogre co-located with one of your own units--6.08.1?] If so, then these two rules should probably be tweaked. Specifically:

4.02(1)(a): All the player’s units which were disabled by weapon fire prior to the beginning of his opponent's last turn now recover automatically. Turn the counters right-side-up.

7.11 [6th paragraph]: A unit disabled on its own turn remains disabled through the enemy turn and recovers (automatically if it was disabled by weapon fire, or via dice roll if it was disabled by terrain) at the beginning of its next turn.
This is a very good point, especially with respect to shockwave. An alternate rewording of 4.02(1)(a) would be: "All the player’s units which were disabled on or before his last turn by weapons fire now recover automatically."

Instead of the above change to 7.11, change the phrase "enemy fire" in the first sentence of the 5th paragraph to "weapons fire". Then add the following sentence to 10.04, paragraph after EFFECTS OF MISSILE EXPLOSION: Units disabled by cruise missile explosion recover the same as units disabled by weapons fire.
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