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Old 05-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #1
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Rapid Fire Houserules

OR
Hitting The Broad Side of a Slowly Moving Barn With Rapidly Firing Recoilless Weapons at Close Range

Rapid Fire is... problematic in many contexts especially with large ROFs, ultra-tech weapons and large targets. This thread isn't for discussing that. If you think the rapid fire rules are great then fine. Either don't post or just take the desire to modify them as a given.

Problems

1 How exactly do you shoot at different hit locations deliberately within one turn? For shooting at hit locations you can;
A Roll randomly which fails to let you choose the hit locations.
B Assume all hits strike a single hit location with a single penalty which fails to let you choose multiple hit locations and leads to far too many bullets hitting the eyes.
C Add all the penalties for each hit location which is way too penalizing and doesn't tell you which bullet hits where if you miss with some.
D Average the penalties for each hit location which still doesn't tell you which bullet hits where. Maybe you could give each bullet a weighted chance based on penalty to miss when one does.
E Use the ranged rapid strike rules which are too penalizing when used against one opponent when you are already capable of shooting that many times and just want to choose which location unlike the melee ranged attack rules which grant additional attacks.

In fact there is a general problem with penalties since the attack roll is being used for both determining whether shots hit where you want them to and how many shots hit which doesn't work if you aren't aiming at only one place.

2 The Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets is too granular jumping between none, half, and all the shots hitting.

3 The Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets requires stationary targets even when the size and distance would make people shooting at the entire target relatively easily able to hit it with all shots

4 The rules assume 1 yard wide firing cones and give structures HP and DR per 1-hex or 10-square-foot area that's fine if you remember to not give bonuses for SM but I'm not sure how deal with damage to a vehicle rather than a wall with this.

5 The accuracy per shot decreases over the amount of shot fired to where it's impossible to hit with a decent amount of the shots with a ROF 300 weapon without Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets.

Any house rules for rapid fire are welcome even if they don't address my problems.

Last edited by Sindri; 05-09-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:16 AM   #2
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
1 How exactly do you shoot at different hit locations deliberately within one turn? For shooting at hit locations you can;
A Roll randomly which fails to let you choose the hit locations.
B Assume all hits strike a single hit location which fails to let you choose multiple hit locations and leads to far too many bullets hitting the eyes.
C Add all the penalties for each hit location which is WAY too penalizing and doesn't tell you which bullet hits where if you miss with some.
D Average the penalties for each hit location which still doesn't tell you which bullet hits where. Maybe you could give each bullet a weighted chance based on penalty to miss when one does.
E Use the ranged rapid strike rules which are too penalizing when used against one opponent when you are already capable of shooting that many times and just want to choose which location unlike the melee ranged attack rules which grant additional attacks.

In fact there is a general problem with penalties since the attack roll is being used for both determining whether shots hit where you want them to and how many shots hit which doesn't work if you aren't aiming at only one place.
I'd go with the Ranged Rapid Strike. I don't think deliberately switching aimpoints is simple. Though I'd suggest that it can benefit from Follow-Up Shots if circumstances allow.

If Spraying Fire weren't already problematic, it would be reasonable to use that for playing an automatic weapon across a target. But Spraying Fire just breaks this whole thing the opposite direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
2 The Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets is too granular jumping between none, half, and all the shots hitting.

3 The Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets requires stationary targets even when the size and distance would make people shooting at the entire target relatively easily able to hit it with all shots
I'm of the opinion that a good fix would render the Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets cludge unnecessary. Trying to expand on a special case exception rather than make the whole thing work doesn't seem beneficial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
4 The rules assume 1 yard wide firing cones and give structures HP and DR per 1-hex or 10-square-foot area that's fine if you remember to not give bonuses for SM but I'm not sure how deal with damage to a vehicle rather than a wall with this.

5 The accuracy per shot decreases over the amount of shot fired to where it's impossible to hit with a decent amount of the shots with a ROF 300 weapon without Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets.
I think, from basic principles, the 1-yard target area thing doesn't actually work either. GURPS rules, if you take your target, double its size, and put it twice as far away, you get the same number of hits, which does make sense, but not if you suppose all those hits are in a 1 hex section of the target.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:30 AM   #3
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'd go with the Ranged Rapid Strike. I don't think deliberately switching aimpoints is simple. Though I'd suggest that it can benefit from Follow-Up Shots if circumstances allow.

If Spraying Fire weren't already problematic, it would be reasonable to use that for playing an automatic weapon across a target. But Spraying Fire just breaks this whole thing the opposite direction.
I don't think it's simple either but I also can't see it being as hard as the combination of switching aimpoints and attacking more as with a melee weapon. Especially when recovering from an attack and switching aimpoints is often harder with a melee weapon then a firearm.

Yeah if you let people using spraying fire for targets on a single person is too much since there wouldn't be any penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I'm of the opinion that a good fix would render the Rapid Fire vs. Close Stationary Targets cludge unnecessary. Trying to expand on a special case exception rather than make the whole thing work doesn't seem beneficial.
I'd like that too, but I'll take what I can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I think, from basic principles, the 1-yard target area thing doesn't actually work either. GURPS rules, if you take your target, double its size, and put it twice as far away, you get the same number of hits, which does make sense, but not if you suppose all those hits are in a 1 hex section of the target.
If you are using the 1 yard target thing then you have to ignore the size of the target in general. Otherwise it makes no sense at all.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:38 AM   #4
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
If you are using the 1 yard target thing then you have to ignore the size of the target in general. Otherwise it makes no sense at all.
However, it is quite clear that the rules do not ignore the size of the target.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:42 AM   #5
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
However, it is quite clear that the rules do not ignore the size of the target.
Well yeah but the actual rules are a mishmash of shooting at the entire target and shooting at 1 yard targets. When shooting at a vehicle you shoot at the entire thing and whatever shots miss manage to miss it entirely. Shots are capable of hitting things before of beyond the vehicle but only in a 1 yard wide cone. When shooting at a wall you shoot at 1 yard wide areas.

The RAW is crazy.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:00 AM   #6
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
The RAW is crazy.
This is a game, and when required, reality takes second place to playability.

The GM can make any 'common sense' rulings required to 'better' model any particular real world scenario.

A completely untested idea:
Instead of simply +1 hit for each Rcl step covered by margin of success, use the Linear Measurement on the Speed/Range table
Success = 1 hit
Success+1xRcl = 2 hits
Success+2xRcl = 3 hits
Success+3xRcl = 5 hits
Success+4xRcl = 7 hits
Success+5xRcl = 10 hits
etc, obviously to a Maximum of the number of shots fired

Or use some other scaling mechanism, perhaps the RoF To-Hit modifier steps?
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:18 AM   #7
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
This is a game, and when required, reality takes second place to playability.

The GM can make any 'common sense' rulings required to 'better' model any particular real world scenario.

A completely untested idea:
Instead of simply +1 hit for each Rcl step covered by margin of success, use the Linear Measurement on the Speed/Range table
Success = 1 hit
Success+1xRcl = 2 hits
Success+2xRcl = 3 hits
Success+3xRcl = 5 hits
Success+4xRcl = 7 hits
Success+5xRcl = 10 hits
etc, obviously to a Maximum of the number of shots fired

Or use some other scaling mechanism, perhaps the RoF To-Hit modifier steps?
I could use more realism and less playability. As a GM I can make rulings for this in out of combat situations ("It doesn't matter that the barn is moving slowly you can still hit it") but ruling is problematic when a range of possible values is desired and doubly problematic if it will come up regularly in combat.

The linear measurement and ROF modifier step ideas are interesting. I'll take a look at how they perform in situations later.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:02 AM   #8
vierasmarius
 
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
A completely untested idea:
Instead of simply +1 hit for each Rcl step covered by margin of success, use the Linear Measurement on the Speed/Range table
That's exactly the mechanism I've toyed with. Haven't fully implemented it in-game, however.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:03 AM   #9
Sable Wyvern
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

My only problem with the rapid fire rules is the fact that every round that hits will strike the targeted location. Which, as the OP points out, can become quite ridiculous if you're aiming for an eye.

Fortunately, I am planning to use a slightly modified version of the variant hit location rules found at http://rpglair.weebly.com/hit-locations.html, which lend themselves to a solution.

The first round hits based on the MoS. The second round hits based on MoS - Rcl. The third round hits based on MoS - (Rclx2). Etc..

So, if your weapon is Rcl 2, you're firing at least three rounds and you hit with a MoS 5 while aiming at the head, the first round hits face, skull or neck, the second round (treated as MoS 3) is randomised between face, skull and neck, and the third round (treated as MoS 1) hits an entirely random location.

It's not perfect, because in the example above you could feasibly hit face, face, foot, but the chances of doing so are fairly slim and I still think that's a preferable result to eye, eye, eye.

Last edited by Sable Wyvern; 05-09-2012 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:16 AM   #10
SCAR
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Default Re: Rapid Fire Houserules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sable Wyvern View Post
My only problem with the rapid fire rules is the fact that every round that hits will strike the targeted location. Which, as the OP points out, can become quite ridiculous if you're aiming for an eye.

Fortunately, I am planning to use a slightly modified version of the variant hit location rules found at http://rpglair.weebly.com/hit-locations.html, which lend themselves to a solution.

The first round hits based on the MoS. The second round hits based on MoS - RoF. The third round hits based on MoS - (RoFx2). Etc..

So, if your weapon is RoF 2 and you hit with a MoS 5 while aiming at the head, the first round hits face, skull or neck, the second round (treated as MoS 3) is randomised between face, skull and neck, and the third round (treated as MoS 1) hits an entirely random location.

It's not perfect, because in the example above you could feasibly hit face, face, foot, but the chances of doing so are fairly slim and I still think that's a preferable result to eye, eye, eye.
I assume you mean Rcl not RoF; since in your final example, RoF 2 will not have a third round!
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