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Old 06-01-2012, 07:06 PM   #51
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

That's looking useful, yes! Thank you!

Not sure if we want to keep host's Body Hits, though -- the ability of a Kyriotate to possess someone in trouble and get them out of trouble is something that feels, to me, like a staple of the Choir. Likewise, Shedim possessing someone and turning them into the equivalent of a PCP-berserker would also be a trick that would be lost.

Another thematic consideration is that a "brick" (body-guard, thug, etc.) Kyrio/Shedite would be kind of crippled if they couldn't take the damage as well as dish it out. I'm not sure a high Corp-Force celestial should be quite so much of a glass cannon. (Or glass battleaxe, depending.)

(That said, "Host's Body Hits" would be an excellent Discord for some of these tankier body-hoppers... *evil grin*)

Hmmm.

It might be that the thematic choice would be "host's or celestial's Body Hits, whichever is more"? That could be explained as "if the celestial has a strong connection to the Corporeal themes of the Symphony, its supernatural sturdiness shines through (but a Kyriotate, of course, has to be careful not to leave a badly wounded host before healing!) -- but even a poorly-connected celestial still has its host's body as a meat shield."

Kyriotates wouldn't be abusing this much because of their dissonance conditions, but Shedim might be a nuisance. It might be worthwhile to give them a risk of dissonance -- and/or some other inconvenience -- at leaving a host to die without the Shedite's CorpForces propping it up, at a minimum. (Leave just before the bullets hit? Fine. Leave after? Maybe the departing soul drags the Shedite along for the ride for a while...)

It would also be a feature to give body-hoppers a standard value for Body Hits, rather than re-calculate based on the host each time. Or at least a standard value per Size of host, so a little chart of 1-6 could be used.

I almost wonder if they should buy a "Vessel" that is used solely for the Body Hits calculation, or if it would be too complicated/expensive...
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
That's looking useful, yes! Thank you!

Not sure if we want to keep host's Body Hits, though -- the ability of a Kyriotate to possess someone in trouble and get them out of trouble is something that feels, to me, like a staple of the Choir. Likewise, Shedim possessing someone and turning them into the equivalent of a PCP-berserker would also be a trick that would be lost.

Another thematic consideration is that a "brick" (body-guard, thug, etc.) Kyrio/Shedite would be kind of crippled if they couldn't take the damage as well as dish it out. I'm not sure a high Corp-Force celestial should be quite so much of a glass cannon. (Or glass battleaxe, depending.)
Huh. And here I thought that that's how the Bodiless already work: Body Hits are tracked on a per-Vessel basis; and the Bodiless, not having Vessels, don't have Body Hits of their own, instead using the Body Hits of their host. Yes, this approach puts the Bodiless at a disadvantage in physical combat compared to other celestials in that their hosts tend to be more vulnerable than the Vessels of their celestial opponents; but this is balanced by the fact that the Bodiless have an endless supply of hosts, whereas once a regular celestial loses a Vessel, it has lost a significant investment; and once it loses its last Vessel, its options in the Corporeal Realm are severely curtailed. It always seemed like a fair tradeoff to me.

To me, the benefits that the Bodiless bring to their hosts are the higher characteristics that they probably have due to having more Forces, plus the fact that their typical host is not Symphonically Aware (and thus doesn't have access to Songs, Attunements, or targeted Essence expenditures). Plus the fact that the host counts as a vessel for purposes such as fatigue and exposure to the elements.

Still, let's try some alternatives:

• Whenever you possess a host, you don't replace its Strength and Body Hits with your own; instead, you adjust them according to what your own Strength and CF are. For Strength, the Bodiless (and celestials with the Song of Possession) record a "host Strength modifier" that's equal to Strength - 10; so a Kyrio with Strength 12 has a "host Strength modifier" of +2, a Kyrio with Strength 10 has a "host Strength modifier" of +0, and a Kyrio with Strength 8 has a "host Strength modifier" of -2. As well, the Bodiless adds a "Body Hit reserve" to the host equal to CF + "host Strength modifier" (minimum of zero): damage to the host is taken off of the Body Hit reserve first. The average Kyrio adds 2 Strength and 5 Body Hits to each host that it possesses, while a physically optimized Kyrio with 6 CF and 18 Strength adds 8 strength and 14 Body Hits to each of its hosts. The one caveat to this is that if you possess a large or huge creature (Size 6+), you benefit from the Strength multiplier: a starting celestial would add +2x3=6 to an elephant's Strength and 5x3=15 to its Body Hits, and a Corporeal-optimized celestial would add +8x3=24 Strength and +14x3=42 Body Hits to the elephant.
• Ditch the "host Strength modifier" (instead, use your own Strength as modified by the host's Size), but keep the "Body Hit reserve", computed as Strength + CF - 10 (again, minimum of zero).
• Ditch the Body Hit reserve, too; replace the host's Body Hits with the Celestial's CF + Strength (as modified by the host's Size). When the possession ends, the host reverts to its own Body Hits or the possessor's Body Hits, whichever is less.

Personally, I prefer the second option: a Body Hit Reserve benefits the Kyrio more than substituting its "own" Body Hits for the host's, and it's more intuitive. The first option also has some things to recommend it (i.e., you don't need to adjust your Strength for your host's Size; and if you've invested in an above-average Strength, your host always benefits from it, regardless of how strong the host is — and conversely, one who fails to invest enough in Strength always pays for it, no matter how weak the host is); the only downside is that beings who are capable of possession need to track an additional trait on the character sheet (the "host Strength modifier").

I also figure that if the concept of a Body Hits Reserve gets used, it's unique to the Bodiless: a normal celestial using the Song of Possession is stuck with his host's Body Hits only.

Last edited by dataweaver; 06-01-2012 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:13 AM   #53
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Huh. And here I thought that that's how the Bodiless already work: Body Hits are tracked on a per-Vessel basis; and the Bodiless, not having Vessels, don't have Body Hits of their own, instead using the Body Hits of their host.
Not quite, according to the first bunch of errata for the core rules, and presumably according to printings made after that errata:
Quote:
Physical damage is measured in Body hits. A celestial's total Body hits equal his vessel level plus Corporeal Forces, times Strength. (A possessed host's Corporeal Forces are that body's "vessel level.") Humans, including undead, have Body hits equal to Corporeal Forces plus any Toughness (p. 48), times Strength.
So, importantly, a random host becomes a hell of a lot more resilient while the possessing spirit is inside, but Kyriotates will probably become dissonant if they don't heal it up to their own HP total, as that's then damage to the host's substantially lower hitpoints.

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Yes, this approach puts the Bodiless at a disadvantage in physical combat compared to other celestials in that their hosts tend to be more vulnerable than the Vessels of their celestial opponents; but this is balanced by the fact that the Bodiless have an endless supply of hosts, whereas once a regular celestial loses a Vessel, it has lost a significant investment; and once it loses its last Vessel, its options in the Corporeal Realm are severely curtailed. It always seemed like a fair tradeoff to me.
Not really, at least not for Kyrios - they actually gain dissonance every time one of their vessels is splatted. As do Shedim, but Kyrios also gain dissonance merely for leaving a host in the middle of combat, and Shedim don't care if the host dies as a result of their departure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
To me, the benefits that the Bodiless bring to their hosts are the higher characteristics that they probably have due to having more Forces, plus the fact that their typical host is not Symphonically Aware (and thus doesn't have access to Songs, Attunements, or targeted Essence expenditures). Plus the fact that the host counts as a vessel for purposes such as fatigue and exposure to the elements.
We say benefits. Kyriotates banish the host owner for the duration of their stay, while Shedim are rarely going to be sufficiently innocuous to make their arrival a net benefit for the host or anyone within about 10 miles of them.

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Still, let's try some alternatives:
I'd prefer #2 to #1 simply for reduced book keeping. #3 has even less book keeping, but exactly as written is too kind to extreme tanks (who will rarely have fewer than the host's original max hits when the possession ends) and too harsh to squishy Kyriotates (who apparently cause harm that they cannot revoke during their stay to any human who happens to have more natural hits than they do).
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:14 PM   #54
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

OK; in the original game, a human has Body Hits of Str×CF, and a Kyrio has Body Hits of Kyrio Str×(Kyrio CF + host CF). Refactoring, this is the same as Kyrio Str×Kyrio CF + Kyrio Str×Host CF. This isn't too different from Kyrio Str×Kyrio CF + Host Str×Host CF, which in turn could be simplified to Kyrio Str×Kyrio CF + Host Body Hits. IOW, while the rationale behind the original rules is a bit different, the effect is roughly analogous to the "Body Hits Reserve" concept. As well, the number of Body Hits that the Kyrio contributes to this total is roughly comparable to the number of Body Hits that the host contributes; so no need to skimp.

So my Official Recommendation™ for the Bodiless is this: they add their (Size-adjusted) Strength and Corporeal Forces to the host's Body Hits.

So a Strength 12, 3 CF "starting Kyrio" who possesses a Strength 10, 2 CF human host adds 12+3=15 Body Hits to the host's 10+2=12 Body Hits, for a total of 27 Body Hits. That's roughly equivalent to a starting celestial who has Vessel/3.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

That looks reasonable, yes!
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:59 PM   #56
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

*quick bamf in*

Did anyone ever manage to give this a spin? O:>

*saves everything and makes a note to futz with it someday*
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:12 PM   #57
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

I'm going to see about consolidating everything into a single post for ease of access. Sadly, I haven't been able to try this out yet, much as I'd like to — but to be fair, I'm more interested in it in terms of what ideas can be ported into a hypothetical IN2e (such as the decoupling of Forces from Resources, and the Size mechanic for unusually large or small Vessels).

EDIT: That, and the simplified system for skill modifiers and defaults.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:07 PM   #58
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The Size mechanic is something that I'm very interested in looking at in case I can ever get a Jordi/Animals thing. Because that's pretty much where that's likely to go.

Forces decoupled from Resources is also definitely on the high list of Things That Should Be Thought About.

But I also want to know how it runs! O:D
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