05-02-2012, 09:48 PM | #31 |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
The one thing I might add is a mention that eyeballing the situation might also net a bonus modifier, not just a penalty--there are situations between "automatic success" and "no penalty". And in IN, you might still roll to get/modify a check digit--sure, everyone's going to hear the disturbance of a human being killed in the neighboring house, but not everyone will know if it happened via a Song or a knife or what-have-you. Perception+4 might give the PCs more information that "wow something LOUD and NEARBY".
So, with a "Wing It!" modifier in place, what else needs to be discussed before we take this to the testing floor?
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“The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.” —Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News Last edited by Acolyte; 05-02-2012 at 09:51 PM. |
05-04-2012, 11:02 AM | #32 |
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
*nods to Acolyte's details*
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05-21-2012, 11:15 AM | #33 |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
I've been thinking about this over the last week or so, and after a chat with Rocket Man that helped me tease meaning out of the more GURPS-specific language, I think I can comment more sensibly than before.
First, the name! Because GIN UL clearly isn't appropriate, and new-IN-that-used-to-be-GIN-UL is unwieldy, he and I have taken to calling this IN:Reprise. Keeps the music motif and suggests fresh new things without a complete break. Also more fun than 3d6IN. On salvaging the CD, because it's one really pretty thing you lose going to d666: why does that have to remove the CD? Assuming you have dice that are different enough to point at one and say "that's the CD", you can roll 3d6, total all of them (including the CD) to see success or failure, and use the CD die for degree of success. Mathwise, this does make high-CD successes more unlikely (if your CD is a 6, on average your total roll will be 13), especially at low skill levels, but...that doesn't necessarily bother me (more skilled people should perform more admirably, right?), and I don't think the difference will be monstrously pronounced. I'm certainly not averse to using degree of success instead of the CD, but it's not as if the CD can't be included in IN:Reprise. Question about Forces and base characteristics: how do you model things with scores far below human normal? A squirrel must have a single Corporeal Force, meaning it's currently going to start with a Str of 6 and an Agi of 10, which is a bit wonky. What's the best way to handle that? (the Kyrios will surely want to know) Question about automatic failures: Obviously, rolling an 18 is an Infernal Intervention. What about rolling a 17? My gut says there's no need for that to be a failure as well. Songs: Double Forces+Song Level isn't wholly elegant, although it's pretty close to the right numbers. What about casting Songs as Skills--that is, off characteristics? Perhaps all Songs use the "power" characteristic (Str/Int/Will), or perhaps they use the "finesse" one (Agi/Pre/Per), or perhaps each Song says which it uses (example: Songs of Charm use the "power" characteristic, so to sing the Ethereal Song of Charm you roll Int+Ethereal Charm, whereas Songs of Light use the "finesse" ones, so to roll Corporeal Song of Light you roll Agi+Corporeal Light). This isn't exactly elegant either, but if the Skill TNs are in the right place, making the Songs work like Skills might not be a terrible idea. And your number of Forces still influences the Song TN, via their influence on characteristics. Perhaps this can lead to some good brainstorming. (Should Songs be so much harder to use, since you have to spend all those CPs on them and their use is already limited by Essence AND fears of creating Disturbance? I don't really think so.) Risk: (pg 39 IN core) What's the best way to implement this rule with a 3d6 spread? Reaction rolls: I almost never use these myself, relying on plot-driven, ad-hoc reactions that do take into account Cha and Status and such. Assuming the were migrating over, what would the new base TN be? How much should each level of Cha/Status add? Using Essence to boost rolls: Is it best to simply acknowledge how the bellcurve more dramatically alters what you get for a point of Essence depending on what your TN already is and move on? A point of Essence at either end of the scale might get you almost no benefit, but one in the middle nets you a comparatively huge chance-of-success increase. ...and I think that's it for now. I am really itching to get playing IN with these rules.
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“The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.” —Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News |
05-21-2012, 06:24 PM | #34 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
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(It would be amusing to me if the big whales (and other giant undersea things?) were all 6+ Forces and could hear the Symphony. And only Jordi's angels really knew this. RELEASE THE KRAKEN SOLDIERS OF GOD!) The "different values for X" and "handwave" were both ideas I've had for a Jordi expansion for aaaaaaages. >_> Quote:
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And while IN Superheroes is a fine way to play (if hard on the local architecture), I am not sure I'd want to encourage it as the default, instead of an option. O;> Quote:
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...I hope that's useful ideas, at least. I'm a bit kidstracted here. >_<
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--Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related) |
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05-21-2012, 08:53 PM | #35 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
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• Your Size determines the maximum number of Corporeal Forces you can have. That is, a human-sized creature can have up to 5 Corporeal Forces (Vessels get an exemption from this, due to being Vessels); larger creatures can have more, and smaller creatures can't have as many. Note that I'm using the same scale here that's used to define the number of Forces required fo a Kyriotate to possess a given animal. • Technically, small bodies have less Strength than large bodies do; but then, they also tend to be more agile: compare the mobility of a rat as it darts around looking for cheese to the mobility of an elephant as it lumbers around. The simplest route to go here would be to call it a wash: just divvy up your Characteristic points as you see fit, with a suggestion that smaller creatures be biased toward Agility while larger one's are biased toward Strength; the more complex object would be to adjust the base values accordingly: for example, for each step down from human Size, reduce base Strength by 1 and increase base Agility by 1, and vice versa. This allows the usual range of Sizes to go as low as five steps down from humans (for a base of Str 1/Agl 11, and with a maximum of 0 Corporeal Forces) and as high as five steps up from humans (for a base of Strength 11/Agl 1, and with a maximum of 10 Corporeal Forces). An even more elaborate scheme would be to introduce an asymmetrical progression: smaller creatures lose two Strength per step down while only gaining one Agility per step, and must buy up their Strength to a minimum of 0; large creatures gain one point of Strength per step while losing two points of Agility, and must also maintain a minimum Agility of 0. This is a bit more complex, but might yield more acceptable results in terms of where Strength and Agility fall: in particular, large creatures have to devote an ever-increasing portion of their Corporeal characteristic points to offsetting the Agility penalty imposed by their Size, leaving them with proportionally less to devote to getting truly obnoxious levels of Strength. • I'll have to run some numbers to see if Size's impact on Strength results in acceptable Body Hit totals; if not, it might be possible to factor Size directly into the Body Hits calculation. I'd prefer the former method; but only if the numbers support it. I'll comment on the rest later, when I have some more time. |
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05-22-2012, 08:39 PM | #36 |
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
I like the -2 Str, +1 Agi -- I think Agi 11 is a bit much for, say, mice! (Get 'em cornered, and it's relatively easy to stick a cup over a mouse for removal. Not to mention that the cats are generally pretty good at playing with the little squeak-toys (till they "break"...), and as larger animals, would presumably have lower Agi...)
Make sure that horses don't break the Agi levels -- dressage horses are pretty agile! Anyway, I look forward to seeing what happens when you run the numbers.
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--Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related) |
05-22-2012, 10:10 PM | #37 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
Still looking for the Kyrio Force requirements; I know I've seen them before, but for the life of me I can't seem to find them.
Yes, cats are larger than mice, even in terms of the abstract scaling that we've been talking about here; but they're not that much bigger, so their "base Agility" isn't going to be much different: IIRC, cats require two Kyrio Forces to possess while mice require only one, meaning that a mouse's "baseline" Agility would only be one point higher than the cat's. As well, cats tend to be skilled hunters, emphasis on "skilled"; chances are that your cat has high levels in tracking and fighting skills. In a typical cat-and-mouse situation, the cat's skill more than makes up for the mouse's slightly better baseline Agility; and that's not counting the fact that the mouse isn't going to have more than one Corporeal Force, whereas the cat will potentially have two. As for the "catching a mouse in a cup" scenario: note that you had to corner the mouse first, leading to a significant situational modifier based on the fact that the mouse no longer has any room to maneuver. Try catching the mouse in a cup while it's scurrying around the kitchen and tell me that it doesn't have Agility of 11 or more. And IIRC, horses are one Size larger than humans according to that Kyrio scale; so their Agility (using the asymmetric progression) would be 4 plus whatever characteristic points you devote to Agility. My guess is that horses tend to have two or three Corporeal Forces (as opposed to the one or two that humans have): if we say that the typical human would put 3 into Strength and 3 into Agility (which isn't possible, because that would require 1.5 Corporeal Forces) for scores of 9 in each, then the typical horse would be putting 5 into each of Strength and Agility, for a Strength of 12 and an Agility of 9. Let's assume for the moment that "+1 Size" tends to mean "+1 Force". This is not an iron-clad requirement; just a rule of thumb. Also, I would expect animals to tend to focus their Forces toward the Corporeal Realm even more than humans do: it should not be uncommon to encounter an animal that has all of its Forces in the Corporeal Realm, especially at the low end of the scale; but even at the high end, it should be rare for an animal to put more than one Force each into the Ethereal and Celestial Realms; one might even be justified in saying that most animals aren't permitted to have more than two Ethereal or Celestial Forces (really smart species might be permitted more, while really dumb ones, such as insects, might not be allowed to have even one Ethereal or Celestial Force; in fact, a case could be made that a cap of one Force in each of the Ethereal and Celestial realms is typical, and only unusually clever animals such as dogs and cats are permitted two). For the most part, "more Forces" means "more Corporeal Forces" where animals are concerned. Certainly, once you get larger than humans you are unlikely to see additional Forces being spread out among three Realms. So, as far as large animals are concerned, "+1 Size" would mean "+1 Strength", "-2 Agility", and "+4 Corporeal Characteristics". Assuming those Characteristic points are evenly divided, that would mean an average of +3 Strength and +0 Agility per +1 Size. If anything, we're underselling Strength for large animals. (On a related note, I'm thinking that there might be Ethereal and Celestial analogs to "Size", with a small "Ethereal Size" reducing baseline Intelligence but slightly boosting baseline Precision, and a small "Celestial Size" reducing baseline Will but slightly increasing baseline Perception. Humans would be the "largest" of the Corporeal species in Ethereal and Celestial terms. I might be going a bit far: while it makes sense to give animals a higher base Perception to offset their probable shortage of Celestial Forces and to short-change them on both Will and Intelligence, the only justification I have for increasing their base Precision is to maintain the symmetry. Still, five out of six ain't bad…) |
05-23-2012, 12:11 AM | #38 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
OK: using the following as the baseline,
Code:
Size Str Agl 1 -2 10 2 0 9 3 2 8 4 4 7 5 6 6 6 7 4 7 8 2 8 9 0 9 10 -2 Code:
Size Forces Str Agl (Forces is "Corp,Eth,Cel") 1 1,0,0 0 12 2 1,1,0 2 11 3 2,1,0 6 12 4 2,1,1 8 11 5 3,1,1 12 12 6 4,1,1 15 12 7 5,1,1 18 12 8 6,1,1 21 12 9 7,1,1 24 12 Note also how Agility holds pretty much steady around 11 or 12; that's by design. The only assumptions I'm making about characteristic points is that you can't "sell down" a characteristic below its base level, and you can't have negative scores. There might also be a ceiling imposed (e.g., at Size 5 you can't put more than 10 characteristic points into each of Str and Agl, with lower caps for smaller sizes and higher caps for larger sizes); but if so, steps up from human size should add at least two to each cap: otherwise, you'll run into cases where you won't be allowed to spend all of your characteristic points. Assuming that you're not allowed to allocate more than 2xSize to any one characteristics, here's the best you can possibly do: Code:
Size Forces Str Agl (Forces is "Corp,Eth,Cel") 1 1,0,0 0 12 2 2,0,0 4 13 3 3,0,0 8 14 4 4,0,0 12 15 5 5,0,0 16 16 6 6,0,0 19 16 7 7,0,0 22 16 8 8,0,0 25 16 9 9,0,0 28 16 Code:
Size Forces Str Agl (Forces is "Corp,Eth,Cel") 1 1,0,0 0 12 2 0,1,1 0 9 3 0,2,1 2 8 4 0,2,2 4 7 5 0,3,2 6 6 6 0,3,3 7 4 7 0,4,3 8 2 8 0,4,4 9 0 9 1,4,4 12* 0* (* or 11 and 1, or 10 and 2.) A slightly simpler approach: stop at Size 8; anything larger than that is the physical equivalent of a Superior. And when "downsizing", don't let baseline Strength go below 0. I'd say that elephants would be Size 7, and you'd have to go to extinct animals or the oceans (e.g., dinosaurs and some whales) to find Size 8 critters. So: Code:
Size Str Agl 1 0 10 2 0 9 3 2 8 4 4 7 5 6 6 6 7 4 7 8 2 8 9 0 |
05-23-2012, 10:03 PM | #39 |
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
Quick reply before sleep -- mouse also has a size modifier for being a small target to catch! O;> (And it might be easier if I weren't trying to catch it in a cup rather than my hand. Not sure. Don't want to get bitten reality-checking, either...)
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--Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related) |
05-24-2012, 03:48 AM | #40 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: GIN Ultra-Lite
Actually, the mouse's size is one of the things that the GM should consider when setting the situational modifier; there is no separate size modifier (that way lies a list of individual modifiers that get added together, which we're specifically trying to avoid). But yes, its small size does make it harder to catch. That said, the fact that it's small is countered by the fact that it can't go anywhere. In fact, I'd say that its restricted mobility is more significant than its small size.
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gurps in nomine, gurps ultra-lite, house rules |
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