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Old 04-08-2012, 08:21 PM   #1
Archangel Beth
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Default GIN Ultra-Lite

As threatened... er, promised? I took a stab at meshing GURPS Ultra-Lite (free at e23) and IN. Now, I'm not the number-cruncher author, so this is seriously quick-and-dirty (I pulled Resource Levels out of my HAT!), but kick this idea around a little for grins...


==========

GIN Ultra-Lite.

Use 3d6. Sniffle at losing 2d6+6. Use Degree Of Success tables from GIN.

Allocate Forces (Corp/Eth/Cel). 9 for angels, 5 for mundanes. Max of 6 Forces in any realm for celestials, 5 in any realm for humans. Minimum of 1 in each realm barring special GM permission for damage/weird backstory/remnants, etc.

Corporeal Forces: Str (ST; damage), Dex (DX)
Ethereal Forces: Int (IQ), Pre
Celestial Forces: Will, Per

Each Force gives ONE level in its attendant stats.

Level increments are 8/10/12/14/16. Start with *8*, not 10, as default. Buy up with Forces. [Optional: let humans start at 10 and buy up from there. Optional2: let Soldiers (etc.) start at 10 and buy up!]

For celestials, Str mostly modifies damage. Cope.

===Resources===

You get 15 levels (aka points) for resources. Choir/Band Attunement is free. Servitor Attunements cost 2 levels each. Distinctions are at the GM's whim. Discord returns 1 level (point) per level of severity.

Vessels have 8 hit points + Corporeal Forces; additional HP costs 1 level per increment. HP in other realms = Int, Will; additional HP in that realm costs 1 level per increment.
Humans automatically get HP equal to Str; additional HP costs 1 level per increment.

Skills cost levels as per GURPS Ultra-Lite. (Four levels max.) Attach to stat (Will, Int, etc.) as per IN, but GM may optionally allow use with a different stat if it seems reasonable. (E.g., combat on the different realms.) Write as Skill/level Stat (+bonus) for maximum complexity! O:D

Songs cost levels, max 6. Roll Realm Forces + Song Level (no bonus!), plus performance modifiers as per IN. (Optional: treat as Skills, with a bonus, but disallow performance modifiers.) Use degree-of-success as per GIN.

111 and 666 work as normal. Yes, a 111 on a reaction roll is good for angels, and a 666 bad. Deal with it.

Relics and Talismans cost 1 level per increment. Max 6 levels because that's what IN does and that makes it easy to just use IN stuff.

Trade 5 Resource Levels for 1 Force (granting its level to the attendant stat). (Optional: Trade 3 Resource Levels for a level in a stat without having a Force. You may do this twice per realm. (So you'd have 16s in both halves.))

============

Have fun kicking it around!
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Dang! I was expecting something about juniper berry flavored booze when I read the title!
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Oh, what the heck... Melody, from the Lilith PDF, p. 31.

Corp 2: Str 10, Agi 10
Eth 3: Int 10, Pre 12
Cel 4: Will 12, Per 12

{2 Corp Forces = 2 levels to put in the stats, raising each from 8 to 10.}
{3 Eth Forces = 3 levels, raising Int from 8 to 10, and Pre from 8 to 12.}
{4 Cel Forces = 4 levels, raising both Will and Per from 8 to 12.}

{15 levels}

Vessel/1 {1 level}, Charismatic (as per GURPS Ultra-Lite) {1 level}, 10 HP
Role/1 {1 level}

Artistry/1 (guitar): PER+4 (16)
Detect Lies/1: PER+4 (16)
Dodge/4: AGI/PRE/PER +16 [...!!!!!!!!!!!! I think we're breaking here.]
Emote/2: PER+8 (20) [...I'm thinking that skills should give +2 instead...]
Fast-Talk/2: WILL+8 (20) [Again, 10 on 2d7 is not 20 on 3d6, methinks!]
Fighting/1: STR/INT/WILL +4 (14/14/16)
Lying/1: PER+4 (16)
Seduction/1: WILL+4 (16)
Singing/2: PER+8 (20)

Affinity: Celestial/1 CEL+1 (5)
Charm: Celestial/3 CEL+3 (7)
Healing: Corporeal/1 CORP+1 (3)
Motion: Celestial/3 CEL+3 (7)
Tongues: Corporeal/1 CORP+1 (3)

Discord/9 (geases) = 9 levels.

She's spend 27 levels... Should have only 24, but that doesn't negate that her skills are going to be way too scary -- and that her Songs are equal to the IN levels, despite the bell-curve's hump being moved from 7 to 10.

Revise: Skills give +2 bonus per level, to both skills and Songs? So Dodge/4 would be +8, or 18/20/20. IN version, that'd be 8/11/12... I think the extremes aren't too bad there, now...

Skills give +1 per level? Dodge 4 = +4, or 14/16/16... But then there's Songs going back to ultra-low target numbers. Viable, or better with a +2 for Songs?
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Use 3d6. Sniffle at losing 2d6+6. Use Degree Of Success tables from GIN.
Sniffling; I'd rather not lose the d666. But I understand the decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Corporeal Forces: Str (ST; damage), Dex (DX)
Ethereal Forces: Int (IQ), Pre
Celestial Forces: Will, Per
You're already using five of the In Nomine characteristic names here; you might as well go all the way and use Agility instead of Dexterity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Each Force gives ONE level in its attendant stats.

Level increments are 8/10/12/14/16. Start with *8*, not 10, as default. Buy up with Forces. [Optional: let humans start at 10 and buy up from there. Optional2: let Soldiers (etc.) start at 10 and buy up!]
A human who dumps as many of his Forces as possible into a single Attribute will have a 14 in that attribute, 10s in two others, and 8s in the remaining three. A hyper-Focused Soldier can get a 16 in that main attribute. By contrast, a celestial who chooses hyper-specialization will have a 20 in one Attribute, 10s in three others, and 8s in the remaining two.

So a starting Celestial who goes for a Jack-of-All-Trades approach will have three of his Attributes at the highest level that a normal human can achieve; and the other three won't be much lower.

Ouch. That said, I don't think that you can improve on this as long as you're sticking to the celestials at 9, humans at 5 arrangement. I'll cope.

And even with that criticism, I wouldn't have humans (regular or Soldier) start at 10; that's equivalent to granting them six free Forces, which would put them ahead of starting celestials, by two Forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
You get 15 levels (aka points) for resources. Choir/Band Attunement is free. Servitor Attunements cost 2 levels each. Distinctions are at the GM's whim. Discord returns 1 level (point) per level of severity.
I like the decoupling of Resources from Forces; in fact, I like it so much that I'm considering house-ruling regular In Nomine to use Something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Vessels have 8 hit points + Corporeal Forces; additional HP costs 1 level per increment. HP in other realms = Int, Will; additional HP in that realm costs 1 level per increment.
Humans automatically get HP equal to Str; additional HP costs 1 level per increment.
The net result is that a celestial who has exactly the same number of Corporeal Forces as a human will have at least as many Body Hits. Not complaining; just observing. Query: what are the caps? In regular In Nomine, a celestial can take from one to six levels in a Vessel, while a human can take from zero to two levels of Toughness; a literal translation of this would mean that celestials would have to spend at least one point improving his Vessel's Body Hits, and could spend as many as six points, whereas a human wouldn't be required to spend any and could spend as many as two.

It's a given that this seriously nerfs Vessels. Again, not a complaint and given that Vessels still retain their immunity to most environmental hazards (they still do, right?), celestials still have a significant edge over humans even with this change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Skills cost levels as per GURPS Ultra-Lite. (Four levels max.) Attach to stat (Will, Int, etc.) as per IN, but GM may optionally allow use with a different stat if it seems reasonable. (E.g., combat on the different realms.) Write as Skill/level Stat (+bonus) for maximum complexity! O:D
What's the reasoning behind the four-level ceiling, instead of six levels as in regular In Nomine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Songs cost levels, max 6. Roll Realm Forces + Song Level (no bonus!), plus performance modifiers as per IN. (Optional: treat as Skills, with a bonus, but disallow performance modifiers.) Use degree-of-success as per GIN.
So if I've put six of my nine Forces into One Realm and I max out the Song, I'll be rolling 3d6 against a target number of 12? Ouch. I'd recommend adding 8 to this target number; otherwise, Songs are toast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Trade 5 Resource Levels for 1 Force (granting its level to the attendant stat). (Optional: Trade 3 Resource Levels for a level in a stat without having a Force. You may do this twice per realm. (So you'd have 16s in both halves.))
With this, a human who trades in all of his Resources could have almost as many Forces as a starting celestial and nothing else.

=====

Bottom line: there are a few ideas in here that I really like. But the single biggest change (replacing the d666 with 3d6) is problematic, both aesthetically and in the sense that it introduces a few complications (namely, the need to add 8 to things).
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
You're already using five of the In Nomine characteristic names here; you might as well go all the way and use Agility instead of Dexterity.
...you're RIGHT! And, in fact, I went and did so, quite unconsciously when I tried to make a character. OXD

Quote:
So a starting Celestial who goes for a Jack-of-All-Trades approach will have three of his Attributes at the highest level that a normal human can achieve; and the other three won't be much lower.

Ouch. That said, I don't think that you can improve on this as long as you're sticking to the celestials at 9, humans at 5 arrangement. I'll cope.
It's probably "closer" than the current mechanics? *wry*

Quote:
And even with that criticism, I wouldn't have humans (regular or Soldier) start at 10; that's equivalent to granting them six free Forces, which would put them ahead of starting celestials, by two Forces.
What about giving humans X levels to spread around their stats, independent of Forces? Or allow half-levels... >_>

Quote:
I like the decoupling of Resources from Forces; in fact, I like it so much that I'm considering house-ruling regular In Nomine to use Something like this.
*sweeps a bow* Go for it!

Quote:
The net result is that a celestial who has exactly the same number of Corporeal Forces as a human will have at least as many Body Hits. Not complaining; just observing. Query: what are the caps?
The quick-and-dirty approach to start kicking it around the block would be to use the same caps as in IN.

Quote:
In regular In Nomine, a celestial can take from one to six levels in a Vessel, while a human can take from zero to two levels of Toughness; a literal translation of this would mean that celestials would have to spend at least one point improving his Vessel's Body Hits, and could spend as many as six points, whereas a human wouldn't be required to spend any and could spend as many as two.

It's a given that this seriously nerfs Vessels. Again, not a complaint — and given that Vessels still retain their immunity to most environmental hazards (they still do, right?), celestials still have a significant edge over humans even with this change.
I'd assume the vessels retain their flavor-text mechanics, yeah.

Quote:
What's the reasoning behind the four-level ceiling, instead of six levels as in regular In Nomine?
GURPS Ultra-Lite uses a 4-level ceiling for skills. Of course, each level is a +4 and I think that converting a character indicates that'll get exponentially scary as characters get experience. If Skills get a +2, then a 4-level cap still seems reasonable... If a +1, how would the spread go? (I'm being distracted here -- someone else do my math for me!)

Quote:
So if I've put six of my nine Forces into One Realm and I max out the Song, I'll be rolling 3d6 against a target number of 12? Ouch. I'd recommend adding 8 to this target number; otherwise, Songs are toast.
Remember that in IN, Songs are very hard to do anyway without Performance modifiers. Mind, this is depressing the top-end a lot, rather than giving a good spread, so I'm contemplating something like Song levels giving a +2. That'd mean Forces 3, Skill 3, would roll against a 9... Forces 3, Skill 1 = 5... (And in IN, it'd be a 4... on 2d6, though.) Song levels give +3? O:/ Song based on highest/lowest of the realm's stats, maybe, instead? Based on "lower of the realm's stats" could be an interesting mechanic...

Quote:
With this, a human who trades in all of his Resources could have almost as many Forces as a starting celestial — and nothing else.
Works for me...

Quote:
Bottom line: there are a few ideas in here that I really like. But the single biggest change (replacing the d666 with 3d6) is problematic, both aesthetically and in the sense that it introduces a few complications (namely, the need to add 8 to things).
Yeah, the aesthetics are lost, sniffle. But the bell-curve theoretically gains in granularity, and thus the ability to make celestials noticeably more powerful without having quite the same "celestials have a fifty-fifty chance of tying their shoes, humans can't walk without killing themselves" spread...
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Last edited by Archangel Beth; 04-14-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
What about giving humans X levels to spread around their stats, independent of Forces? Or allow half-levels... >_>
There's a certain cognitive dissonance when a human has higher stats in a Realm than a celestial who has the same number of Forces in that Realm.

But how about this: use In Nomine's usual method for determining characteristics, but start your characteristics at 8 instead of 0. You'll get the same sort of numbers as the method you suggested above.

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
GURPS Ultra-Lite uses a 4-level ceiling for skills. Of course, each level is a +4 and I think that converting a character indicates that'll get exponentially scary as characters get experience. If Skills get a +2, then a 4-level cap still seems reasonable... If a +1, how would the spread go? (I'm being distracted here -- someone else do my math for me!)
Attribute 8: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 9-14.
Attribute 10: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 11-16.
Attribute 12: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 13-18.
Attribute 14: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 15-20.

Last edited by dataweaver; 04-14-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
But how about this: use In Nomine's usual method for determining characteristics, but start your characteristics at 8 instead of 0. You'll get the same sort of numbers as the method you suggested above.
It ditches the GURPS Ultra-Lite's "levels" of stats immediately... Good thing or bad thing?

But, working from that... So you get 4 Characteristic-points per Force to spread between the two characteristics, but start at 8 instead of 0...
1 Force = 10, 10
2 Forces = 12, 12
3 Forces = 14, 14
4 Forces = 16, 16
5 Forces = 18, 18
6 Forces = 20, 20

...I think that starting at 8, but with 4 characteristic-points per Force, is too high. IN celestials can be worse than human-average if they have only 1 Force in a realm, or load their stats weird.

If we're throwing out Ultra-Lite's "levels" of 8, 12, etc., we have the option of keeping 1 Force = 4 Characteristic points, but lowering the baseline to 6, which would do 8,10,12,14,16,18. Would probably have to set a minimum of...7? 6? for a characteristic, and max of... 18? 20?

Quote:
Attribute 8: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 9-14.
Attribute 10: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 11-16.
Attribute 12: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 13-18.
Attribute 14: 1-6 skill levels would be TN 15-20.
MAF IS HARD! I KANT AD! ...Thank you.

Add skill level to characteristic... that's looking like a spread of TN 7 (min char. 6 + skill/1) to TN 26 (assuming max char. 20 + skill/6). IN's got enough cinematicness to it that TN 26 isn't thaaaaat bad. (If we force max char of 18, that'd be be TN 24... maybe not worth it?)

Now, for humans, if we're assuming 5 Forces, call it a 2-2-1 spread...
Corp 2: Str 10, Agi 10
Eth 2: Int 10, Pre 10
Cel 1: Will 8, Per 8.

This is arguably not a bad representation of mundane humans in IN. >_>

Our mundane J. Average here would have most of his skill target numbers on a spread from 11-16, and his Cel-based ones on a spread from 9-14. His celestial counterpart (9 Forces, in 3/3/3 configuration, so 12s) gets a TN spread of 13-18.

That's not bad. I'm not hating that, personally. Celestials are going to generally be better, but a semi-focused mundane can surpass a jack-of-all-trades celestial in his specialty and not be falling on his face all the time.

Okay, so, we're divorcing Resource points from Forces. Snicker-snack. How many resource points should we be doing? I pulled 15 out of my hat; celestials will have to buy vessels and extra attunements (if any) from that pool, but they get better characteristics by default so they can just cry me a river.

I think you suggested a "green/experienced/expert" selection in the other thread? That would probably be useful, and it fits with the GURPS idea of different point levels. I'd suggest that as a roleplay thing, these guidelines are usually attached to Time Spent On Earth, but a newly-created celestial could be given a lot of skills by direct Superior implantation -- don't let the designations rule out edge-case character design. (Let the GM rule out edge-case character design! Or not...)

So... What kind of range should be suggested? 5/10/15/20? 10/15/20? 5/15/25?


Next question is Songs... I think Forces+6+skill is going to make them too easy at the average level -- 3+6+[1-6] = 10-16. Forces+skill gives 4-9, though, for Celestial Average. Forcesx2? 7-12 at average? Lemme chart that out... (Can you tell I'm thinking "out loud" all over this thread?)
1 Force = 2+[1-6] = 3-8. Keep rituals as giving a bonus, and I think this is not an impossible range.
2 Forces = 4+[1-6] = 5-10. Getting better; rituals still useful.
3 Forces = 6+[1-6] = 7-12. Not bad.
4 Forces = 8+[1-6] = 9-14. Still not breaking the game.
5 Forces = 10+[1-6] = 11-16. Starting to be scary, but 5 Forces should be?
6 Forces = 12+[1-6] = 13-18. Definitely alarming, but 6 Forces in IN is 7-12 on 2d6, and 12 is a guaranteed success barring Intervention... So a 6-Force whatever-mutant-thing-this-is{1} celestial is a bit better at skill/1, but isn't cracking out the top at skill/6.


{Footnote: 'Cause I don't think it's GIN Ultra-Lite anymore. I think it waved bye-bye at the top of this post.}
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Add skill level to characteristic... that's looking like a spread of TN 7 (min char. 6 + skill/1) to TN 26 (assuming max char. 20 + skill/6). IN's got enough cinematicness to it that TN 26 isn't thaaaaat bad. (If we force max char of 18, that'd be be TN 24... maybe not worth it?)

Now, for humans, if we're assuming 5 Forces, call it a 2-2-1 spread...
Corp 2: Str 10, Agi 10
Eth 2: Int 10, Pre 10
Cel 1: Will 8, Per 8.

This is arguably not a bad representation of mundane humans in IN. >_>
If you go with a base of 7 instead of 6, these become:
Corp 2: Str 11, Agi 11
Eth 2: Int 11, Pre 11
Cel 1: Will 9, Per 9.

The average characteristic would be a 10⅓, which is remarkably close to the default of 10 that GURPS uses. If we were allowing fractional Forces (which I wouldn't recommend), we could do something like:

Corp 2: Str 11, Agi 11
Eth 1: Int 10, Pre 10
Cel 1: Will 10, Per 10.

Meanwhile, a starting celestial with an even spread would be:
Corp 3: Str 13, Agi 13
Eth 3: Int 13, Pre 13
Cel 3: Will 13, Per 13

That's one point less than the 14 that GIN suggests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Okay, so, we're divorcing Resource points from Forces. Snicker-snack. How many resource points should we be doing? I pulled 15 out of my hat; celestials will have to buy vessels and extra attunements (if any) from that pool, but they get better characteristics by default so they can just cry me a river.

I think you suggested a "green/experienced/expert" selection in the other thread? That would probably be useful, and it fits with the GURPS idea of different point levels. I'd suggest that as a roleplay thing, these guidelines are usually attached to Time Spent On Earth, but a newly-created celestial could be given a lot of skills by direct Superior implantation -- don't let the designations rule out edge-case character design. (Let the GM rule out edge-case character design! Or not...)
You don't need Time Spent On Earth to pick up Songs or Artifacts; as well, Artifacts and Vessels arguably don't have a time component to their acquisition at all: they're things that you're given (or otherwise acquire) rather than things that have to be developed over time.

Just have the point pool represent overall experience, and leave it up to the GM and/or player to determine how much of that was Time Spent on Earth, how much was Time Spent in Heaven or Hell, and how much represents simply being well-equipped. This also evades the argument that humans ought to have more Resource Points than Celestials: for the average twenty-year-old human, Time Spent On Earth is twenty years (as opposed to starting celestials, who might easily have been on Earth for a year or less).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
So... What kind of range should be suggested? 5/10/15/20? 10/15/20? 5/15/25?
I've never personally had any complaints about In Nomine's pricing structure for Resources; they're quite simple as is. So why not just use the same Resource costs as normal In Nomine and grant 20 points per stage of experience?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
Next question is Songs... I think Forces+6+skill is going to make them too easy at the average level -- 3+6+[1-6] = 10-16. Forces+skill gives 4-9, though, for Celestial Average. Forcesx2? 7-12 at average? Lemme chart that out... (Can you tell I'm thinking "out loud" all over this thread?)
1 Force = 2+[1-6] = 3-8. Keep rituals as giving a bonus, and I think this is not an impossible range.
2 Forces = 4+[1-6] = 5-10. Getting better; rituals still useful.
3 Forces = 6+[1-6] = 7-12. Not bad.
4 Forces = 8+[1-6] = 9-14. Still not breaking the game.
5 Forces = 10+[1-6] = 11-16. Starting to be scary, but 5 Forces should be?
6 Forces = 12+[1-6] = 13-18. Definitely alarming, but 6 Forces in IN is 7-12 on 2d6, and 12 is a guaranteed success barring Intervention... So a 6-Force whatever-mutant-thing-this-is{1} celestial is a bit better at skill/1, but isn't cracking out the top at skill/6.
That looks reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth
{Footnote: 'Cause I don't think it's GIN Ultra-Lite anymore. I think it waved bye-bye at the top of this post.}
We arguably waved bye-bye to GURPS as soon as you dropped HT from the Attributes and added Precision, Mind Hits, and Soul Hits.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:22 AM   #9
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Hmmm. I'm not sure we want to make Human Minimum Average into a 9 -- it feels kind of high to me. (And dicing Forces into thirds is a non-starter, yeah.) I think handing humans a few extra characteristic points...

There's an idea, actually. Since we've kind of wandered off from GURPS entirely now, and are more in 3d6 IN land, and the idea of Resource Points are now being based on Desired Power Level of the game and/or in-character justifications, what about handing humans a few extra characteristic points based on their purpose in the game? E.g., J. Random Mook has no extra characteristics, and is a 2/2/1 configuration with Will 8, Per 8 (or Will 6, Per 10/Will 10, Per 6, etc.); easy to possess, tends not to notice the celestial shellgame. Important NPC has 2 to 4 (2-3?) extra characteristic points, which will probably be spent raising Will and Per a bit more. Player Character Human Mundane has 4 extra characteristic points, to be spent as desired, and Player Character Human Soldier gets 4 (3?) extra points plus another Force.

(I'm not worried about matching the default celestial stats to 14, though I hadn't thought of that aspect and it's definitely a point. But using IN skills at a +1-for-1 level, rather than GURPS skills where you start at less-than-stat and go up, means working with a 12 as average gives a slightly more pleasant feel for the skill levels, I think? Also, at 14 in 3d6IN, I'm not sure there's as much "resource-management" give-and-take to assigning characteristics.)



Resource Points... Regular IN starts with 9x4 (for celestials), or 36... Yeah, 20 per "experience level" sounds like a good place to start kicking things around; humans no longer get freebie skills, I'd think? But they don't have to buy a vessel, either.


Soooooo, Skill Defaults! I'm thinking... double the penalty in the IN core rules? Or would that cripple humans too much?
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

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Hmmm. I'm not sure we want to make Human Minimum Average into a 9 -- it feels kind of high to me. (And dicing Forces into thirds is a non-starter, yeah.) I think handing humans a few extra characteristic points...

There's an idea, actually. Since we've kind of wandered off from GURPS entirely now, and are more in 3d6 IN land, and the idea of Resource Points are now being based on Desired Power Level of the game and/or in-character justifications, what about handing humans a few extra characteristic points based on their purpose in the game?
The idea of decoupling Characteristics from Forces at all rubs me the wrong way; and putting in special characteristics rules for humans just for the purpose of some sort of game balance doesn't feel right, either. Just leave it as 6 + characteristic points, and the human players should just cope with the fact that the typical human is slightly sub-par. It's still a drastic improvement over the hole that they're in in regular In Nomine.

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Resource Points... Regular IN starts with 9x4 (for celestials), or 36... Yeah, 20 per "experience level" sounds like a good place to start kicking things around; humans no longer get freebie skills, I'd think? But they don't have to buy a vessel, either.
The freebie skills struck me as a kludge that was being used to help offset the fact that humans not only had roughly half the characteristics as celestials, but also roughly half of the Resources. Yes, celestials have more (and more expensive) things to spend their points on; but they also get more (with the arguable exception of Roles, which are utterly useless to humans as written making them unique among the Resources): under the current system, a celestial could spend the equivalent of a human's entire allotment of Resources on skills, and still have nearly that much left over to spend on a Vessel, Role, and Songs. And the free skills didn't even fix the issue; they just took some of the bite out of it. So yeah; keeping the free skills isn't needed once you decouple Resource points from Forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Soooooo, Skill Defaults! I'm thinking... double the penalty in the IN core rules? Or would that cripple humans too much?
I'll have to review the default penalties; I don't really recall what they are, but if they're in the -1 to -3 range I could see doubling them. If they're already in the -1 to -6 range, I'd leave them be. More importantly though, I'd put the "burden of proof" on doubling them.
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