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Old 04-03-2012, 02:07 PM   #21
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
I have to know - how do you figure this?
Standard lift and drag equations. Doing stream tube analysis generally requires a computer (plus some trig and calculus), regular fixed wing aerodynamics don't really require more than algebra and some patience (again, a computer makes it easier). A really good simulation would require a bunch of computer power and is way more effort than I'm willing to make.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:14 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Um you missing trends in large flyers like the Haast Eagles who wings while large are notable shorter than if that trend was strictly true.
Haast Eagles, as mentioned, are not 100 lbs+ flyers.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Haast Eagles, as mentioned, are not 100 lbs+ flyers.
Quetzalcoatlus on the other hand is generally estimated to have been about 200 lbs.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:24 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Quetzalcoatlus on the other hand is generally estimated to have been about 200 lbs.
It was a living hang glider, not much of a wing flapper.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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It was a living hang glider, not much of a wing flapper.
Actually, nobody really knows for sure. Even if they were mostly gliders (which is probable) they still had to also fly. Modern birds that are mostly gliders (many of the Cathartiformes for instance) are still flyers, they have to be in order to get high enough in order to glide and to catch thermals.

Current research into ornithopters has used Quetzalcoatlus as a model including at least one military UAV program.

Besides large ornithopters will also have to be "mostly gliders" for similar reasons. Which isn't really a problem, AFAICT.

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Old 04-03-2012, 02:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Haast Eagles, as mentioned, are not 100 lbs+ flyers.
It was one of the top heavy weight fliers AND further more DID NOT have wing proptions of the large gliders becase they would have got in the way when they dived on their prey.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Haast's_Eagle

So while the large gliders are one option it is not as your passing off the only option.
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Last edited by roguebfl; 04-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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It was one of the top heavy weight fliers AND further more DID NOT have wing proptions of the large gliders becase they would have got in the way when they dived on their prey.

So while the large gliders are one option it is not as your passing off the only option.
They were closer to 50 pounds and as island livers probably couldn't fly very far. Still anything that regularly killed 500 pound bipeds is not something I want to mess with no matter how it moved.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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They were closer to 50 pounds and as island livers probably couldn't fly very far. Still anything that regularly killed 500 pound bipeds is not something I want to mess with no matter how it moved.
Note while it self was only 50 lbs it did carry off prey to feed it's young.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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Note while it self was only 50 lbs it did carry off prey to feed it's young.
There is no way on earth it carried a 500 pound carcass. Pieces of flesh after it ate its full, yes, but not whole prey.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Spaceships] Ornithopter Wings no longer TL5+2!

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There is no way on earth it carried a 500 pound carcass. Pieces of flesh after it ate its full, yes, but not whole prey.
The reports were of people so I don't think it was 500 lbs of moa, but more of the order of 150-200 lbs of additional load. And your right about it being a specialist it specilized in large animals , a niche normally filled by made, the problem is once humans made the Moa extinct the Hasst eagle was doomed because they only thing left that was large enough for it to eat was humans (deer did not come until the euopeans came). And Humans have a good tract record of eliminating anything the exclusively preys on them.
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