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Old 01-25-2012, 08:22 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

In a situation where a tactical team is sweeping a building and a shooter is 'slicing the pie'

Am I correct in assuming this is excecuted as one step per round at a time? So one step, roll to spot (or it may be automatic succes) and the shooter may shoot if there is a target, but does not shoot if there is none. He announces in advance if he wants to evaluate before firing, for -2 to-hit.
If there is an enemy with a Wait he may also shoot, and this is the time to roll Quick contests to see who shoots first, right?
But if there is an enemy without a Wait, you just shot him?
If there is no target you take another step in the same round?

This sounds almost like a Move-and-Wait manoeuvre, but there is no such a thing?

The alternative would be to declare a Move-and Attack right? To rush in and shoot if anybody is there. An enemy with a Wait may very well shoot faster than you. So it is not recommended unless you're in a hurry!
But can you declare this and *not* shoot if there is no target? Is this similar to the -2 for evaluate? To say "I rush in and shoot at any target whatsoever, but if there is none then naturally I don't shoot"?
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

The examples I've seen on TV have all been faster than 1 yard/second, from what I remember. I'd call that a special version of Move-and-Attack, rather than 'step->wait->step->wait->step->shoot'.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
The examples I've seen on TV have all been faster than 1 yard/second, from what I remember. I'd call that a special version of Move-and-Attack, rather than 'step->wait->step->wait->step->shoot'.
Tactical Shooting doesn't explain it 100% clear - not for me that it.

It sounds like a series of Step-and-Attack (if there *is* a target), moving at 1 ys/sec.

I asked because I also presume a faster slice rate. Mmmmmm slice...

That was why I saw this as a good opportunity to come up with an exception to Wait to allow some move. I think half move would be apporpriate, or even Move/3. AFter all an AoA(determined-Ranged) allows half move, but only forwards - and I assuem this means in the direction you are facing, which IMHO is forwards regardless of how the legs are pointing.

Is there no longer a 'pop-up shot modifiers like there was in 3rd ed?
Meaning a penalty for not having the target visible until you yourself moved (or stood up) to bring it into sight.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Am I correct in assuming this is excecuted as one step per round at a time?
From TS24: "The next turn, take another step, and so on, slowly circling around the corner."

It does not say this explicitly, but I would treat this like a Step and Concentrate maneuver. See Situational Awareness, TS11. In game terms, you also avoid Bulk penalties.

The reason you go slow is so that you can see the guy first, and so that no more of you is visible than necessary. More cover, means a harder shot for him. Stealth is involved as well, since you could very well ease out, see him, and shoot him before he sees you. It can take a long time to clear a building this way. If you have to move in on a bad guy taking the Wait maneuver there are two ways: rush him and cause a Fright Check, or approach him while using maximum cover.

By slicing the pie, if you spy him and are undetected, you can then move back into cover, alert your partner or support team, and decide how to attack. A SWAT team or military squad might use explosives or flash bangs. A couple of cops searching a reported B&E might quietly switch places -- bringing the single long gun between them into the front position, say. Gesture helps here! Or they may decide to rush the guy and scare him into surrendering. Ready on 1, 2, 3 . . . "Freeze!, Freeze!, Drop the gun!, Drop the gun!, Drop the gun!, Drop the gun! . . ."
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:11 AM   #5
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
From TS24: "The next turn, take another step, and so on, slowly circling around the corner."

It does not say this explicitly, but I would treat this like a Step and Concentrate maneuver. See Situational Awareness, TS11. In game terms, you also avoid Bulk penalties.
Well, this is the main difference really. You get a better shot by taking a long time. Of course a maxed-out CQB technique limits this.
On could also assume that is an enemy heard you approach - os suspects somebody is coming - he'll Wait. But indisciplined or hurried enemies migth not keep this up for very long, so a multi-round-slicer may not see the enemy (or vice versa) until several seconds later where the enemy may have started moving. But this is merely a thought experiment.

Using flash-bangs to initiate the rush should mean it is ok to hurry using MaA.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

I talked with Kromm and Hans about "Step and Wait." They both think it's fine, and this is how pie-slicing should be treated.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:23 AM   #7
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
I talked with Kromm and Hans about "Step and Wait." They both think it's fine, and this is how pie-slicing should be treated.
Has this been discussed in an earlier thread then? Because I feel a sense of Deja Vu...
But then again I often do ;)

Edit: But only Step-and... not Move-and...? So it's still the slow method at 1 yd/sec.
For a faster version it's just Move-and-Attack with the clause that the -2 for evaluating also allows you to not shoot if there are no targets. Of course you still need to roll Vision to spot the target in the first place.

But the slow slice allows you to use Sighted Shooting or what? So the Reflex Sight is usable?
And the fast slice only allows unsighted shots and hence only tactical lights and laser aimpoints?
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Has this been discussed in an earlier thread then? Because I feel a sense of Deja Vu...
But then again I often do ;)
I think it was, but there was also private mail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm in private mail
>> explicitly allow Step and Wait

Checking my e-mail, I see that I gave permission for this way back in
the writing process . . . That's the one I like.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:32 AM   #9
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

Done properly, this is somewhat slow and precise. The object isn't to rush, but not to get shot or grabbed. Moving quickly around corners is done when time is of the essence (bombs ticking, hostages dying, etc.), but that isn't the same maneuver. People trained to slice the pie will still move as if they were doing it and look where they're supposed to look – that's the power of training – but they'll be operating too quickly to be guaranteed the initiative if someone is waiting. In game terms, they'll be walking the same path but without a Wait against their enemies.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: [TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Done properly, this is somewhat slow and precise. The object isn't to rush, but not to get shot or grabbed. Moving quickly around corners is done when time is of the essence (bombs ticking, hostages dying, etc.), but that isn't the same maneuver. People trained to slice the pie will still move as if they were doing it and look where they're supposed to look – that's the power of training – but they'll be operating too quickly to be guaranteed the initiative if someone is waiting. In game terms, they'll be walking the same path but without a Wait against their enemies.
Roger.
But how is the timing against a Waiting and stationary target?

The SWAT officer makes repeated Step-and-Waits around the corner, until he get LOS on a target. Assuming he maes his Per roll to spot the enemy, who shoots first?
Both have a wait going, so do they roll for speed as normal? Is there any difference in the fact that the SWAT guy is moving and the other is stationary?
I'd be tempted to give the stationary party a slight bonus to shoot first.

Which is why this is best preceeded by a flash-bang grenade.

However looking at TS p10 the box lists rules for "neither fighter has ready weapon" and "one party has ready weapon" - not "both have ready weapon"?
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