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Old 01-10-2012, 12:37 AM   #11
Sniperkitty
 
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post

However as you and your players get used to it you will find that some of those extra options add a lot of fun and flavor to combat.
I agree. i hope they do. :)
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:39 AM   #12
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by Sniperkitty View Post
slower paced, more complicated.
it deftly not slower paced, rembed dnd tae 6 second turns and absracts out a lot.

GURPS has a 1 second turn thant when the going all out a starting GURPS character can do more in 6 second than some high level Dnd Chacter in teh same 6 seconds.

it just a GURPS you have more control of evens due to less abstraction.

you might scoff at a 'weak +1 sword' ind Dnd but in GURPS the +1 sword pretty decent due to the bell cuver
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
it deftly not slower paced, rembed dnd tae 6 second turns and absracts out a lot.

GURPS has a 1 second turn thant when the going all out a starting GURPS character can do more in 6 second than some high level Dnd Chacter in teh same 6 seconds.

it just a GURPS you have more control of evens due to less abstraction.

you might scoff at a 'weak +1 sword' ind Dnd but in GURPS the +1 sword pretty decent due to the bell cuver
Yes but GURPS combat involves a lot of decision making. So it slows down the pace from the players point of view. Instead of just declaring your target and making a couple of die rolls you have to pick a maneuver, make a die roll or two and the other guy usually also gets a defense roll.
So with inexperienced people or those who just take too long to decide your combats can seem to drag on a long time.
The trick to managing that is make everyone decide quickly and the cards can help as they look through them while waiting for their chance to go and are ready when asked what they are going to do next.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

I ran a small combat to see how people would like it.

Pregenerated 25pt characters... these were the guys who wish they they could wish of being hero material.

Each was a one trick pony to see how things behaved.

Eventually the leader was the noble armoured guy effectionately known as Captain Klanky (he had armour and walked slow).

Spear and Shield guy with overconfidence
Paired Tonfa dude with impulsiveness
Zweihander with Beserk
Sword and Shield guy with indecisiveness
Quarter Staff dude with curiousness
Captain Klanky with armour and shield plus code of honour chivalry

Played a couple of games with them and people enjoyed the behaviours. One guy on 'Mission Cliche 1' wanted to know what was over there... aah your impulsive, off you go.

Spear guy thought he would not need his shield and got beaten up by Zombies. Captain Klanky was concerned but the Spear guy managed to convince him he was fine (or rather Captain K did not realise he was fibbing).

Luckily indecisiveness guy managed to get the book back to the alter after a few rolls to be decisive.

It was all a bit of fun.
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Last edited by smurf; 01-10-2012 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by Sniperkitty View Post
slower paced, more complicated.
But also offers more in the way of tactical choices and finesses...which also translates into "lots of difficult and time consuming rules"
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Old 01-10-2012, 05:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperkitty View Post
slower paced, more complicated.
But also offers more in the way of tactical choices and finesses...which also translates into "lots of difficult and time consuming rules"
A standard resolution of an attack is thus:
  1. Roll to hit (with modifiers if appropriate)
  2. Target rolls defence (if can defend)
  3. Roll and apply damage (for some attacks, this is replaced by a Resistance roll against a non-damaging effect).
GURPS adds the second roll of defence most of the time, this is true. However, everything else has mostly the same building blocks as in D&D.

What accounts for longer turn resolution is primarily people (especially newer players) spending time considering the possible options. Since newer players are more likely to post their first impressions, the reputation of a slow system crops up.

So why the long consideration? Well, in D&D, many options become available with Feats (e.g. called shots to the leg). In GURPS, most such options are part of the skill; if you know Staff, you can use it to Sweep enemies; it's just that being trained in Sweep makes it significantly easier to do than if you 'merely' know the general Staff skill. All that means that whether to use a particular 'feat' depends on the situation (you can check out the recent Guide to Tanking for examples of situational Techniques).

Another interesting note is that, at least in my experience based on gaming D&D/D20, a successful attack in GURPS is likely to have more an effect than one in D&D. This is because GURPS doesn't have such a significant increase in HP as characters gain experience (in realistic games, anyway; in Supers and the like you can expect more HP).
So while getting 3d6 damage past Damage Reduction in D&D is no big deal against a veteran Fighter (easily 15d10 HP total, right?). Getting 3d6 damage past Damage Resistance in GURPS against a veteran 'fighter' is pretty brutal, and can often be a fight-ender. (Of course, there's the issue of getting past defences/armour, but I'm trying not to overcomplicate things.)
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

I see that and IMO makes GURPS quicker.

Almost, whack, argh, fight over.

Not: whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, fight almost over, followed by whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, fight over.

Also once hit a lot of fighters get minuses to their skills next round thus making the demise of the fighter much more easier than the 'whack a mole' combat of DnD.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:46 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

Our group doesn't go faster with D&D than GURPS combats, that's for sure. Even with people who have been playing D&D 4e since it came out, and GURPS 4e only once or twice, both systems had us clearing two or three combat encounters per session (GURPS 4e DF style, for maximum compatibility of comparisons even).

I would hazard a guess that we might even be faster with GURPS if I could get them to play as much of it as they do D&D 4e.

Definitely part of the "problem" is that people have more choices right out of the gate in GURPS. D&D ties the number of things you have to choose between to your level - either directly (extra class features, spells/powers per day) or indirectly (more feats from more levels, more magic items with more funky conditions). A level 1 2e or 3e fighter is often looking at "I whack it with my longsword!" as his only attack option other than "I try to grapple it! ... where are the unarmed combat rules again?" 4e characters get a few more options out side of the gate, but out of the four things your character gets to do at level 1, one you can only do 1/day and one you can only do 1/fight so those options tend to get whittled down quickly. As you get higher in levels, more options are unlocked - but by that point you're already familiar with your "old" options so you only need to figure out how to integrate your "new" options.

Even ignoring techniques and all the little optional flags and switches, basic GURPS combat floods you with more options from point one. Guy With Sword has the choice of Attack, All Out Attack, All Out Defense, Move and Attack, and he has to combine those ideas with whether to Thrust or to Swing his sword, and oh, he has a shield and he could bash or slam with it instead of attacking with his sword, and he has to keep track of facing too (something D&D 3e and later have abandoned completely). He even has to make choices when attacked: Whether to dodge, block or parry and whether to Retreat or not!

But if you get into the full system, there's a LOT more to wade through. GURPS gives you the chance to use almost everything relevant to your skill right out of the gate - but with say only 1 point in the skill, you're Very Bad at most of those options, making many of those options "false choices". Even with a 14 or a 15 you can get frustratingly low hit chances.

One of the biggest things I've found for speeding up people starting in GURPS is to only put down on their sheet techniques or options that they have a 12 or higher in, and that leave their defenses at a reasonable level too. I don't even put down All Out Defense unless the character is a Berserker - even the guys in my group who don't like GURPS and have only played a few times know that AoA is an Admiral Akbar choice[1].
Once they get familiar with things, they're welcome to start layering on options and taking all the risks they want. But a player who's being stressed out by having too many choices to make under time pressures and frustrated by finding out which ones are bad the hard way is one who's going to strongly dislike your game system.

NPCs get no techniques at all unless they've maxed them out, and I only max out techniques on NPCs that will be the bread-and-butter of their fighting style.

[1] "It's a trap!" I prefer to have new players find out it's a trap by demonstrating it with some mook monsters rather than having their PC crippled by it.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

TL;DR version of my previous post: You're spoiled for choice in just about every area of GURPS. Combat is just one aspect of it. :D
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: Hack n' slash?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
A standard resolution of an attack is thus:
  1. Roll to hit (with modifiers if appropriate)
  2. Target rolls defence (if can defend)
  3. Roll and apply damage (for some attacks, this is replaced by a Resistance roll against a non-damaging effect).
GURPS adds the second roll of defence most of the time, this is true. However, everything else has mostly the same building blocks as in D&D.
In addition to all the great stuff said, have most of the opponents take All-Out Attack (Strong or Determined) [1] + Telegraphic Attack [2]. The first half of that gets rid of those pesky 'Target rolls defense' from above. The second bit give the heroes +2 to all their active defense rolls against this opponent. (If you have Martial Arts, having mooks use the "Coin Toss" Option from the Untrained Fighters box on p. 113 has worked great for me even if the mooks have some skill).

Give the mooks a low skill (they'll be at +4 to +8 anyway) and a weak weapon or low ST (ST 8 or 9, Large Knife or Hatchet or Light Club, Skill 9).

Then, when the heroes are really feeling their oats, ignore all of the above for the boss fight. Give him a decent skill and let him make active defenses.

Using the above most of the fights I run go really quick even if one or two of the complex options get trotted out by one or more of the players.

GURPS Campaigns, p. 365.
GURPS Martial Arts, p. 113.
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