Warhorse Encumberance vs. Gear Weight Broken

[Allen]

Guys,
I just calculated the weight and encumberance for warhorse with full plate barding carrying my character with heavy plate and gear.
The horse gear, plate barding for all legs etc, war saddle, bridle, shoes etc weighs 205lb.
My character weighs 220lb. and has 125lb. of armor and gear (sleeping roll, water etc). Add the weight for a lance and medium shield 21 lb.
This adds up to 571lb. total.
With a 24 st warhorse the horse is in heavy encumberance, assuming the warhorse is trained to carry a knight and barding etc lets assume he will not refuse to move. His normal travel speed would be 7 x .4 = 2 and his charge speed would be 14 x .4 = 5.
So riding a war horse would slow my party's travel rate to 1/2 of our normal speed and the warhorse's charge would be at speed 5. Lightly armored opponents could thumb thier noses at me and run away, the charging warhorse could not catch them.
I computed it would take a 31 st warhorse to carry the load at medium encumberance, then the move would be reasonable 7 x .6 = 4 for normal travel and 14 x .6 = 8. An exceptionally strong animal would be at most 20% stronger so max should be 29 st.
If anyone can find something I have done wrong that can enable a warhorse to carry a fully armored knight and plate barding at a reasonable speed I would like to hear it.
Thanks,
Allen

[Allen]

Another way to look at it is with plate barding and war saddle etc the fighter and gear would have to weigh 140 lb or less to keep the warhorse in medium encumberance. Sounds like a 100 pound weakling with leather armor could do it.

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by Allen

Another way to look at it is with plate barding and war saddle etc the fighter and gear would have to weigh 140 lb or less to keep the warhorse in medium encumberance. Sounds like a 100 pound weakling with leather armor could do it.

However, the idea behind a heavy cavalry unit is to deliver heavy damage, something a 50 kilogram boy would not be able to do.

Maybe heavy warhorses just have a bit higher ST than proposed?

[sir_pudding]

GURPS armor weights are too high, for both personal armor and barding. As far as the marching speed goes: Knights rode coursers until battle, only then would the destrier be saddled and barded.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Allen

Guys,
I just calculated the weight and encumberance for warhorse with full plate barding carrying my character with heavy plate and gear.
The horse gear, plate barding for all legs etc, war saddle, bridle, shoes etc weighs 205lb.
My character weighs 220lb. and has 125lb. of armor and gear (sleeping roll, water etc). Add the weight for a lance and medium shield 21 lb.
This adds up to 571lb. total.
With a 24 st warhorse the horse is in heavy encumberance, assuming the warhorse is trained to carry a knight and barding etc lets assume he will not refuse to move. His normal travel speed would be 7 x .4 = 2 and his charge speed would be 14 x .4 = 5.
So riding a war horse would slow my party's travel rate to 1/2 of our normal speed and the warhorse's charge would be at speed 5. Lightly armored opponents could thumb thier noses at me and run away, the charging warhorse could not catch them.
I computed it would take a 31 st warhorse to carry the load at medium encumberance, then the move would be reasonable 7 x .6 = 4 for normal travel and 14 x .6 = 8. An exceptionally strong animal would be at most 20% stronger so max should be 29 st.
If anyone can find something I have done wrong that can enable a warhorse to carry a fully armored knight and plate barding at a reasonable speed I would like to hear it.
Thanks,
Allen

Firstly, as others have noted, armour weights in GURPS are higher than they should be.

Secondly, historically a horse's legs weren't armoured, partly because of the weight penalty. Next, the war saddle seems to include stirrups, and the only other things you need are the Bit & Bridle and shoes. This is a total of 162 lbs., saving 47 pounds.

Thirdly, you shouldn't be carrying anything but armour and weapons while on your warhorse - it's for battle, not travel. Even at GURPS' inflated weights, wearing heavy plate, etc., with a knife, sword, lance, and medium shiled you shouldn't be carrying more than 135 lbs.

All up that's 517 lbs., which is nearly within medium encumberance for a ST29 creature. As your character is a big guy, even by modern standards, I don't think it's unreasonable that he finds it hard to get a horse strong enough to bear him and all his crap at any great speed - this is not unrealistic. I suggest ditching the leg armour, maybe going to lighter barding, and really trimming back on what your character carries. You'll probably want to buy a couple of donkeys and a riding horse as well - one for all your gear (and armour while just travelling), one for extra grain, the saddle and tack (when travelling), and so on, and the horse for yourself to travel on (if you're concerned about ambushes, get a cavalry horse). Hiring a groom, or aquiring a squire as an ally/dependant would also be wise. As you can see, there's a reason heavy cavalrymen were men of wealth and status - you had to be to be able to afford all the support for that horse and armour.

BTW, IIRC you can use your Enhanced Move while travelling (which is dodgy in terms of reality, but it's what the rules say).

[thastygliax]

Traveling overland with a horse in plate barding is absurd. Barding that heavy was reserved for war and tournaments, and even then, was both rare and rarely a full suit. (Jousting barding was almost always front-only--nothing else was needed.) And to be effective in it, yes, you will need an exceptional steed, not just any old heavy warhorse.

Even when a knight errant is wearing full plate armor while traveling (itself only possible with a squire), his horse will typically only have light armor, if any. Heavy armor is a huge strain on the horse, and spending a full day in it could very well kill the mount. If heavy barding needs to be transported overland (say, for a battle or tourney), use a wagon or split the pieces between a few pack animals. You'll need extra assistants in any case, to manhandle that much metal on and off the horse in any kind of timely way.

[Edit: Rupert beat me to the punch.]

[Amy]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Thirdly, you shouldn't be carrying anything but armour and weapons while on your warhorse - it's for battle, not travel. Even at GURPS' inflated weights, wearing heavy plate, etc., with a knife, sword, lance, and medium shiled you shouldn't be carrying more than 135 lbs.

But he's wearing plate over mail.

Originally Posted by Rupert

All up that's 517 lbs., which is nearly within medium encumberance for a ST29 creature. As your character is a big guy, even by modern standards, I don't think it's unreasonable that he finds it hard to get a horse strong enough to bear him and all his crap at any great speed - this is not unrealistic.

ST29 isn't a standard ST for a WH, using the guideline p.457 it's the max. And given the PC's ST16 he fall in average build p. 18.

Originally Posted by Rupert

You'll probably want to buy a couple of donkeys and a riding horse as well - one for all your gear (and armour while just travelling), one for extra grain, the saddle and tack (when travelling), and so on, and the horse for yourself to travel on (if you're concerned about ambushes, get a cavalry horse). Hiring a groom, or aquiring a squire as an ally/dependant would also be wise. As you can see, there's a reason heavy cavalrymen were men of wealth and status - you had to be to be able to afford all the support for that horse and armour.

See the thread about CoL for horses.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Amy

ST29 isn't a standard ST for a WH, using the guideline p.457 it's the max.

That 20% variation is the same as the human variation.
So a base ST24 WH will have a ST variation of 19-29, just like a normal human, ST10, will have a ST variation of 8-12.
Anything outside the 20% variation is unusual and uncommon.

Originally Posted by Amy

And given the PC's ST16 he fall in average build p. 18.

There is nothing average about a ST16 human, his horsey equivalent would be a ST39 WH.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Amy

But he's wearing plate over mail.

In that case he deserves what he gets (or doesn't, in this case). :)

ST29 isn't a standard ST for a WH, using the guideline p.457 it's the max. And given the PC's ST16 he fall in average build p. 18.

I know it's not standard. I was just showing that the stats will allow a top-end warhorse to manage if you trim you weight carefully.

As for the guy - he might be normal build (I assumed he was, and that he had ST14+), but he's still a big guy.

See the thread about CoL for horses.

I assume this is advise for readers in general. :)

[tbone]

My humble additions:

I think ST 24 is a bit modest to begin with. A knight's warhorse should be the equine equivalent of a big, bruising human warrior. It's my opinion that horses are SM 2 (whereas G4 says SM 1, I believe), so I would set ST at twice that of a strong human. Which ST 24 does represent, yes, but I'd go a wee farther. ST 26 or 28?

On top of that, I would add extra BL for carrying purposes only. I don't know whether G4 suggests that for draft animals (or even offers the option), but I think it's needed for a very simple reason: a horse is built much better than a human for carrying a load, especially with four legs to bear weight. I don't think you'll get good results for draft animals without a little extra BL for carrying. An extra 10%, at least?

Yet when all is said and done, it does make sense for some significant encumbrance to remain. That is a huge load you're placing on the beast, and as others have pointed out, it's not reasonable to expect the creature to bear that weight all through a day's march.