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Old 08-10-2011, 07:14 AM   #11
robkelk
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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Originally Posted by ISNorden View Post
Lilith, like any other human, would still have been mortal in the beginning--and still gone to some other realm eventually.
I agree that Lilith would have been mortal to begin with, but why would she have to stay that way?
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Originally Posted by Genesis 3:22-23
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
As far as I know, there's no account saying what Lilith may or may not have taken from the Garden of Eden when she walked out...
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

I agree with robkelk... and who is to say that Adam and Eve were mortal? The Genesis experiment was an attempt at perfection, after all. Just because the Bible happens to say that they died, it does not mean that that's the way it was - or whether they died of natural causes. And indeed, Lilith, according to Legend, continues her existence on the material plane... so I think a corporeal Lilith isn't that far out.

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Old 08-14-2011, 09:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

Just to fuel ideas... The original INS/MV has no Lilith... but does have Eve, Archangel of Women. If I recall correctly.
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Old 08-15-2011, 07:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Just to fuel ideas... The original INS/MV has no Lilith... but does have Eve, Archangel of Women. If I recall correctly.
Oh, there was an Archangel of Women in the French game--but if the character generator I saw online is accurate, that Archangel was named Catherine (what the heck?!?). I've seen at least two heretical write-ups of a Heavenly Eve for the American version: one gave her the Word of Women, one the Word of Humanity in general (Adam's Word was "Endurance" in that version).

Back to the original topic, though: do you think it makes "game sense" for Lilith to end up as the first Dreamshade after her death? Since most ethereals are human creations unaligned with Heaven or Hell...I liked the idea of an ancient human spirit being responsible for other celestials Defecting later on. (Given the Grigori's Dissonance condition, I might have been wrong to make them go first; then again, they're the Choir closest to man and most likely to be tempted by going native!)
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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Originally Posted by ISNorden View Post
Oh, there was an Archangel of Women in the French game--but if the character generator I saw online is accurate, that Archangel was named Catherine (what the heck?!?)
I did a little searching online. Although she used Catherine as an alias, the Archangel of Women was in fact Eve. She apparently went missing after the Joan of Arc affair in INS/MV, but resurfaced in a later adventure.
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Old 08-16-2011, 05:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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Originally Posted by ISNorden View Post
Back to the original topic, though: do you think it makes "game sense" for Lilith to end up as the first Dreamshade after her death? Since most ethereals are human creations unaligned with Heaven or Hell...I liked the idea of an ancient human spirit being responsible for other celestials Defecting later on. (Given the Grigori's Dissonance condition, I might have been wrong to make them go first; then again, they're the Choir closest to man and most likely to be tempted by going native!)
Your main problem with that one - though I like the idea - may be that the human idea of Lilith is not a positive one. Jewish folklore/mysticism paints Lilith as an evil destroyer of children and seducer of men, so if those dreams/conceptions reflected on the Dreamscape, I think the resultant Lilith would be a lot less neutral, and more hellbound. Just my opinion, though...
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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Your main problem with that one - though I like the idea - may be that the human idea of Lilith is not a positive one. Jewish folklore/mysticism paints Lilith as an evil destroyer of children and seducer of men, so if those dreams/conceptions reflected on the Dreamscape, I think the resultant Lilith would be a lot less neutral, and more hellbound. Just my opinion, though...

Very good point--even if she had not accepted semi-demonhood from Lucifer, Lilith still would have done enough evil as a human to get sent Downstairs. :-) If I accept that as "game truth"...then is there a legitimate "primal being" from real-world myth and folklore who could be cast as the inciter of an Ethereal resistance? Even the Fall had its charismatic leader; it stands to reason that someone was behind those first Defections, too.
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

How about Prometheus? Prometheus, to me, always sounded rather like a rogue angel of Gabriel, so maybe he/she threw their lot in with the ethereals?
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Old 08-17-2011, 09:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

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How about Prometheus? Prometheus, to me, always sounded rather like a rogue angel of Gabriel, so maybe he/she threw their lot in with the ethereals?
That is a good one. I might also recommend Hermes Trismegistus, a god based on occultists' and mystics' assumption that Hermes and Thoth were actually the same god. He's associated with bringing wisdom and magic to humanity, and guiding souls to the afterlife (so he's a good candidate for leading souls to the Marches instead of Heaven or Hell).
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Old 08-17-2011, 05:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: [heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

One might also consider Shiva, or another powerful Hindu deity. This may be particularly poignant since they are the only really powerful ethereal entities left in the world, as far as reverence is concerned.

And off topic: What is vanilla IN's stance on the hindu deities? Considering that approximately a sixth of the human population still reveres them, and they apparently weren't touched by the purification crusades, what is their story?
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